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Author Topic: Rough battery price spreadsheet 2018 edition.  (Read 4451 times)
fourfootfarm
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« on: February 19, 2018, 05:43:00 PM »

Since navitrons battery page is empty https://www.navitron.org.uk/store/off-grid/batteries-cables

I've made an update to a now very out of date spreadsheet I did years ago.

Some caveats.

These are maybe not the cheapest prices but they are hopefully fairly indicative.

I've not included life cycle info

1, because lazy
2, because I'm skeptical of the data provided by some manufacturers
3, because it depends on the user

I got rid of some of the other columns and added /kwh

If anyone has any ideas or suggestions to add in let me know.

Its mostly offgrid compatible stuff so no LG chem wall because that is grid tie only (or at least so I think)

With all that in mind!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vZ9Ha07zzzfwuyOag5s8hqV6KgByXIYafaqJa7VgM7A/edit?usp=sharing
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Outback FM60. EPsolar 30a MPPT and a bunch of Tristar 45's. Hodge Podge of solar ~ 4500w. Various generators and 1000ah 24v forklift battery.

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djs63
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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2018, 02:59:48 PM »

Thank you very much indeed for preparing this. It is just what I need for the next project! extrahappy
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6 Kw Proven wind turbine, 15 Navitron evacuated solar hot water tube array and 1.8 Kw PV, grid connected (SMA inverters) and GSHP supplying radiators and UFH. Wood burning stove (Esse 300) and oil fired Rayburn. Rainwater harvesting 4000 litre tank underground. Nissan Leaf
RIT
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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2018, 08:52:14 PM »

If Navitron are still not marketing batteries (and it has been a while) I hope they don't mind if I just post this link to a UK supplier that does focus on batteries.

    http://www.off-grid-europe.com/batteries

Trying to quote a cost for KWh is complicated due to all the variables that can affect a battery (recommened DoD, cycles (DoD dependent), C rating and ongoing maintenance cost).

The best way I have found for compairing all the options is to always compare against a single solution that I have got to understand well. I may change from time to time over the years as solutions change. For a long time I've been using the cost of a 60KW traction battery set. Even this is misleading as the 60KW rating is for C5 usage. At C20 usage it becomes a 78KW solution, but when taking into account 50% DoD it becomes a 39KW solution, which ends up with a 164 per KW cost.  As the battery is rated at 2000 cycles at 50% DoD I can say that over it's life it 'could' provide an aggregated output of 78,000KWh of stored energy and so the minimum cost of storage per KWh is around 8.2p over the life of the battery (excluding a fair amount of maintenance).
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2.4kW PV system, output can be seen at  - https://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?userid=49083

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freddyuk
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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2018, 08:47:51 AM »

Just to confirm it is Tayna Batteries not Tanya.
Aquion are back in the game this year with an improved product so if the price per kWh improves from the old version they may be an option for stationary applications.
I have aquired some of the S30 stacks and will be installing this year for home storage system.
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fourfootfarm
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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2018, 09:09:03 PM »

I was pondering putting aquion on. Will show horn them in!

Funny you should say that. On a similar note I mispronounced ceramic and crematic for years and years until one of my lecturers corrected me.

I not word good.
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Outback FM60. EPsolar 30a MPPT and a bunch of Tristar 45's. Hodge Podge of solar ~ 4500w. Various generators and 1000ah 24v forklift battery.

Turkish Turnip
fourfootfarm
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2018, 05:10:00 PM »

Added a few more things, looking through the aquion bumph it looks like you can only take a small current out of them which is a bit concerning.

Cycle Life3,000 cycles
(to 70% retained capacity)
Operating Temperature-5C to 40C ambient
Voltage Range40.0 to 57.6 V
Continuous Power680 W
Peak Power800 W
Continuous Current17 A
Usable DoD100%
Round Trip Efficiency90%

RE: RIT

Theres no real way around that problem. Hence including lots of caveats. If I started including lots of info about expected life cycles then inevitable people will pipe up saying they're wrong! So I've stuck to the bare bones of the matter and people do their own research, or not do it and make some expensive mistakes.  chocolateteapot
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Outback FM60. EPsolar 30a MPPT and a bunch of Tristar 45's. Hodge Podge of solar ~ 4500w. Various generators and 1000ah 24v forklift battery.

Turkish Turnip
NoahsDad
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« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2018, 07:40:00 AM »

1. What are peoples thoughts on the Lucas brand Forklift pack battery on the spreadsheet?

Type: FLA
Condition: NEW
Cost: 3914
kWh: 33.552
/kWh: 116.65

https://www.Tayna.co.uk/Forklift-Batteries-S264-4.html?ordering=Price-Desc&stype=cat&A-8=48

2. What sort of cost region would you be looking at to get a compatible inverter for these?

3. I don't know much about FLA batteries, only really familiar with Li-Ion batteries. So what is considered better FLA or Lithium? What are the main differences?
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fourfootfarm
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« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2018, 03:38:47 PM »

Hi NoahsDad,

I don't know much about Lucas I'm afraid.

If you're buying 33kwh of battery that means you can support a 3-5kw inverter. If you go for a main brand quality one. (victron outback ec) 1000-1500 depending on what functionality you want. A 3kva all singing all dancing Victron Multiplus is 1200. The usual suspects will sell them.

If you prefer to go the cheap and dirty way a chinese special will be around half that.

Lithium are magnitudes better in pretty much every way. Except price. The absorb power more efficiently, they don't require maintenance, they give out power more readily. They're lighter, smaller, last more cycles, have greater depth of discharge. But cost so much much more.

If you are cunning you can find sources for used ones but thats an alternate can of worms.

For the price conscious lead acid remain the best bet. A well cared for flooded pack will last 10 years at least. Mine did 10 years service in a forklift before entering my care and its still going strong. But it needs watering. Can't be kept inside and moving it would take most of the day.

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Outback FM60. EPsolar 30a MPPT and a bunch of Tristar 45's. Hodge Podge of solar ~ 4500w. Various generators and 1000ah 24v forklift battery.

Turkish Turnip
billi
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« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2018, 06:17:39 PM »

Hi  Daddy ,

 that battery is   rated 420 ah  (C5 )   its then in my understanding a 20 kWh battery not 33 ... cause forklift batteries just are rated at C5 and  nothing else not 100 hours ....

so it is a PzS420    and  for that  fooling ,  that linked company should be avoided  and banned  whistlie

my prize list from a  battery factory in poland   tells me  1 765 Euro  ex Vat   for a 48 volt 7PzS420     so half the price  of that  gangster company

By the  way 20 kWh  battery  seems a good size  for a 4 kW PV house  , and sure paired with a victron multi plus 3000 watt or the 5000 watt one  ( about 1100 -1800 GBP )  nearly all you need

Can recomend that route ..... Smiley  and the battery has a lead  value for recycling after  of about 500 GBP  at the momant  

you have to fill about 20-30 litres of water ( depending on usage )   over the year

Regards billi
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 08:07:31 PM by billi » Logged

1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
offthegridandy
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« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2018, 08:05:44 PM »

best price I got in Dec 2015 was from ManBat (in Manchester).  Price for new FLA 1000Ah (C5) 12 Nos 2V cells with interconnects and 2 nos 1mtr take of cables inc VAT and delivery to wales 1650 . Superb service and knowledgeable staff. Pleasure to do business with them.
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8 KVA Lister TS2 Startamatic Genny
24 Volt 1000amp battery bank
Outback VFX3024
4.6 Kw PV array ground mounted
Outback Flexmax 80
2 X Flexmax 30 PV CC
2.5 Kw WT H Piggot design 4.5 Mtr Dia AC coupled
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u/floor heating from oil boiler cross linked to 12 K wood stove
freddyuk
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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2018, 09:34:19 AM »

Added a few more things, looking through the aquion bumph it looks like you can only take a small current out of them which is a bit concerning.

Cycle Life3,000 cycles
(to 70% retained capacity)
Operating Temperature-5C to 40C ambient
Voltage Range40.0 to 57.6 V
Continuous Power680 W
Peak Power800 W
Continuous Current17 A
Usable DoD100%
Round Trip Efficiency90%

RE: RIT

Theres no real way around that problem. Hence including lots of caveats. If I started including lots of info about expected life cycles then inevitable people will pipe up saying they're wrong! So I've stuck to the bare bones of the matter and people do their own research, or not do it and make some expensive mistakes.  chocolateteapot
I have two known installations with Aquion and after 2.5 years there is no measurable reduction in capacity. These batts are cycled regularly and one is a working cider maker so uses some heavy duty machinery without any problems. I have two more stacks than he does (+4kWh) so expect to be able to survive for 10 years+ with these. Stated lifetime to 70% capacity is 10 years so they will still work at lower capacity for many more years - in theory.
I noticed the quotes for voltage limits are based on 30c so in fact you can put in higher charge voltage at our measley 15c average temperatures?
My system is being wired up now and I will be able to report on performance in a normal domestic situation. I have 6kw PV with grid back up as no generator yet and I am getting net export payments so can keep that going until a generator becomes available.
Aquion may not be aiming at the domestic market on their return to business but if the price is sensible I feel they have a place.

They are easily stored in a garage and will be boxed in as no access is required.
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