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Author Topic: Water Source Heat Pump Project  (Read 11888 times)
Pile-o-stone
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« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2018, 10:18:31 AM »

This is fantastic! I loved reading your original thread where you fixed your water erosion issue and then added the benefit of water recycling. It was an amazing example of life giving you lemons and you making lemonade. Even better, you're now looking at sticking electrodes into the lemon and extracting energy. This is superb, and I'm really looking forward to reading your new thread as this idea develops.

EDIT: I just re-read your old thread as I'm considering a rainwater harvesting project myself. It's still a great read but all of the photos have gone, which is a shame.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 05:40:21 PM by Pile-o-stone » Logged

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nowty
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« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2018, 09:59:38 PM »

I just re-read your old thread as I'm considering a rainwater harvesting project myself. It's still a great read but all of the photos have gone, which is a shame.

Yes its the photo hosting site which changed its domain and all old photo links need to be edited for them to work. If I find some time I will re-edit them on that thread as some of the photos are classic. sh*tfan

Todays job was finishing the plumbing of the ground loop at the heat pump end which included, full bore isolation valves, expansion vessel, air bleed valve and filling point with pressure gauge. I then air pressure tested the ground loop by using a pressure sprayer. ballspin

Unfortunately it leaked badly. facepalm

Using leak detection spray (soapy liquid) I quickly found 4 compression joints which were pretty bad. Copious amounts of sealant compound and PTFE tape later and its sorted. fingers crossed!

Pumped the air pressure up to 2 bar and its holding, I will check again in the morning. extrahappy

Also (very slowly) building a wall to hide it all.  onpatrol

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Lithium battery storage of 50+ kWh.
Hot water storage of 15+ kWh.
Heat storage of 15+ kWh.
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EV BMW i3 (another 30+ kWh's of storage).
250,000+ litres of water harvested from underground river.
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nowty
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« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2018, 10:40:58 PM »

I now have the heatpump, there is not much to them, a compressor, a couple of heat exchanges, hhhmmmm no water pumps, I knew I should have asked. facepalm




So purchased two Lowara Ecocirc pumps for the ground and hot water loops. They are a new shaftless motor design and only use 40w for 6m of head and a max 3000 litres per hour, that should do it. fingers crossed!

Then I did some calculations on the ground loop (wrong way round I know) and realised that I need around a 9m head pump to get the design flow of 1,500 litres per hour. Problem is that 6m pumps are cheap as chips but more powerful pumps are circa 4 or more times the price. wackoold




Anyway I tested it with the Lowara pump and I measured a flow rate of 750 litres per hour. I was about to bite the bullet and purchase a more powerful pump but as I had two of the pumps I tried both in series and the flow rate improved to 1,100 litres per hour, we are getting there. Then I decided to add a 6th copper coil (which just about fitted) to the ground loop to reduce the pumping resistance. ballspin

We then had a huge prolonged thunderstorm of biblical proportions and the river level rose half way up the manhole. I keep forgetting just how powerful flood water is and I started to wonder if all my tons of reinforced concrete and pre-stressed lintels would survive such punishment, let alone my copper heat exchanger. sh*tfan




Not only did it survive completely undamaged, the storm washed away all the silt and we are left with crystal clean water. extrahappy




Ordered another pump for the hot water loop but it arrived with a fault, so has had to go back. sh*tfan

So I am now awaiting another before the big switch on test can commence. fingers crossed!
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Lithium battery storage of 50+ kWh.
Hot water storage of 15+ kWh.
Heat storage of 15+ kWh.
6kW Ground source heatpump.
EV BMW i3 (another 30+ kWh's of storage).
250,000+ litres of water harvested from underground river.
Home grown Fruit and Veg.
todthedog
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« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2018, 01:09:55 PM »

Cracking Nowty enjoying this thread. genuflect
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regen
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« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2018, 07:25:24 AM »

super project-watching for the outcome.

Regen
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nowty
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« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2018, 03:07:32 PM »

Replacement pump arrived. help

Will it work ? flyingpig, will it even switch on ? banghead, or go up in a puff of smoke ? sh*tfan, what will SWMBO say if I have spent a grand on some scrap stainless steel ? fight

Connected the final pump and for test purposes, the hot water loop is a builders bucket with 35 litres of water in it so it acts as a thermal store. Its raining so the river flow is more than average and the river temp is also higher than normal at 17 degrees. So conditions are about as favourable as they could be. fingers crossed!





Switched on the unit, it makes a strange noise then falls silent. Huh

Then the ground loop pump starts up, followed a minute later by the hot water loop pump. Soon after the compressor starts up and is reasonably quiet. I had screwed the unit down to a wooden plinth and added rubber feet just in case of excessive vibration, but I needn’t have bothered. Almost instantly the gauges on the exterior of the unit move in opposite directions and the hot water output feels slightly warm, with the ground loop getting colder with condensation forming on the ground loop pipes. Shocked


Wow, it actually works, and 17 mins later ……………………………………………..….. extrahappy









A constant increase of 2 degrees per minute in the 35 litre builders bucket, from 18 degrees all the way up to 58 degrees in 17 mins when the high temperature tripped out the compressor. I have calculated that equates to a constant 5.7kW of heat output. The electricity consumption gradually increases in line with the compressor pressure, thus reducing the COP value. The ground loop rapidly drops in temperature for the first 5 minutes, then becomes constant. On the first run it stabilised at 10 degrees out and 14 degrees return.







I have since re-ran the test each day, each time with differing pump flow rates and with different river conditions. From this I draw a number of conclusions.

1)   With a slower river flow the ground loop stabilises at a lower temp, first run was out 10 degrees and return 14 degrees (10 / 14). Subsequent runs with less river flow were 5 / 9 and 3 / 7. But the outcome was the same, no measurable difference in heat output or electricity consumption. I have read somewhere that the ground loop needs to go considerably below zero to make a difference.

2)   I slowed down the ground loop pumps and although the temperature difference between flow and return widened from 4 to 5 degrees, there was little measurable difference in heat output or electricity consumption.

3)   I slowed down the hot water loop pump and although the temperature difference between flow and return widened from 4 to 5 degrees, there was little measurable difference in heat output or electricity consumption. In fact the heat pump manual says for efficiency, the temp difference should be less that 6 degrees for optimum operation.

4)   The headline spec of 8kW seems to be a fair bit of an exaggeration. whistlie

5)   The COP figures compare favourably with the findings of the Energy Savings Trust heat pump trials which published real life COP values.

6)   My crazy copper heat exchanger design seems to work as the ground loop temp is stabilising at above zero temperatures. ballspin


Now I just have to work out what I am going to use it for. wackoold
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 10:06:39 PM by nowty » Logged

11kW+ of PV installed and 54+ MWh generated.
Lithium battery storage of 50+ kWh.
Hot water storage of 15+ kWh.
Heat storage of 15+ kWh.
6kW Ground source heatpump.
EV BMW i3 (another 30+ kWh's of storage).
250,000+ litres of water harvested from underground river.
Home grown Fruit and Veg.
regen
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« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2018, 04:09:36 PM »

Did not have to wait very long-what a great result.

A steady 5.7 kw of heat and a COP of 3.0 at 40 deg C- thats more than enough to heat my whole house even in a bad winter!

Wondering if you know the actual flow rates from the stream as i am more than a bit interested in this having failed with the hydro turbine route due to the complexity of the paper work/permissions. i have up to 100 lps available at the back door and a UFHS already installed which runs off a thermal store so this could be the way to go.

Regen
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3.92w freestanding PV with sb3300 +Imersun
21kw Stratford T70 woodburner
 300litre thermalstore with 3kw and 1kw immersions
 Wall star 25kw oil boiler
  Spring water supply with uv and ro membrane
 Sheep, poly tunnel and approx 80 sq m of raised veg beds.
djs63
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« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2018, 05:38:21 PM »

Nowty, I love it. Sadly I live on top of a gentle hill but my neighbour has a stream running past, it is about 4 metres wide with a good flow and the house used to be a Mill long ago, so they could copy your system.....
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Fintray
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« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2018, 07:14:01 PM »

Brilliant and well done getting it all working.  genuflect
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« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2018, 08:57:27 PM »

Brilliant work Nowty, I wish I had a stream near by to tap in to.  Converting a potential problem inbto an ergy source is top dollar, hats off to you.

Andy
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nowty
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« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2018, 10:21:05 PM »

Wondering if you know the actual flow rates from the stream as i am more than a bit interested in this having failed with the hydro turbine route due to the complexity of the paper work/permissions. i have up to 100 lps available at the back door and a UFHS already installed which runs off a thermal store so this could be the way to go.

According to the Kensa Heap pump website, the rule of thumb with flowing water is 3 litres per minute for every 1kW of heat output. I originally measured the flow at around 30 litres per minute after it had not rained for over two months, therefore thought 5kW or so was possible. I measured it by jamming a two litre plastic measuring jug into the flow on the outlet pipe for 1 second and it filled it one quarter of the way, therefore half litre per second. wackoteapot

100 lps is a potential 2 MW !, house is gonna be toasty. hysteria
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11kW+ of PV installed and 54+ MWh generated.
Lithium battery storage of 50+ kWh.
Hot water storage of 15+ kWh.
Heat storage of 15+ kWh.
6kW Ground source heatpump.
EV BMW i3 (another 30+ kWh's of storage).
250,000+ litres of water harvested from underground river.
Home grown Fruit and Veg.
todthedog
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« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2018, 06:08:12 AM »

I wish that there was a hat doffing icon. genuflect genuflect

Brilliant work Nowty .

A genuine pleasure to read.
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regen
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« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2018, 08:02:31 AM »

Wondering if you know the actual flow rates from the stream as i am more than a bit interested in this having failed with the hydro turbine route due to the complexity of the paper work/permissions. i have up to 100 lps available at the back door and a UFHS already installed which runs off a thermal store so this could be the way to go.

According to the Kensa Heap pump website, the rule of thumb with flowing water is 3 litres per minute for every 1kW of heat output. I originally measured the flow at around 30 litres per minute after it had not rained for over two months, therefore thought 5kW or so was possible. I measured it by jamming a two litre plastic measuring jug into the flow on the outlet pipe for 1 second and it filled it one quarter of the way, therefore half litre per second. wackoteapot

100 lps is a potential 2 MW !, house is gonna be toasty. hysteria

Thanks for the info Nowty. I only need 3kwh per hour as the house is very well insulated. The main point from your installation was your ability to use the copper pipe thus reducing the size of the collection area very significantly vs the poly pipe method. Being on a very sloping site flat ground adjacent to house is at a premium so being able to construct a small pit with an inflow and outflow is what will make this feasible for me.

Regen
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3.92w freestanding PV with sb3300 +Imersun
21kw Stratford T70 woodburner
 300litre thermalstore with 3kw and 1kw immersions
 Wall star 25kw oil boiler
  Spring water supply with uv and ro membrane
 Sheep, poly tunnel and approx 80 sq m of raised veg beds.
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« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2018, 11:56:31 AM »

Brilliant stuff Nowty,
                        I would love to do something similar,,just like Andy said,
                                              Biff
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« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2018, 02:01:05 PM »

Great work as usual Nowty, you never cease to amaze Smiley

 I just wondered, given the scale of the flow you seem to have available, whether you considered using a simple open loop ie. sucked in via a filter upstream and discharged downstream?



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