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Author Topic: Are batteries worth it, does this calculation work?  (Read 6338 times)
Scruff
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« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2018, 08:02:11 PM »

If the best we can seem to get is a 80% round trip efficiency from every conceivable battery option in production why is everyone obsessed with chemical batteries instead of mechanical? Cathodes degrade faster than turbines!
A mechanical battery is every bit as efficient as a chemical one but more upscalable, less volatile, less toxic embedded energy and lower self-consumption.

I'm taking about State Level Storage here:

Compressed Gas Caverns.
Pumped Hydro.
Tidal Storage.
Magnetic Bearing Flywheels.
High Altitude Rainwater Catchment.
Electrolysed Hydrogen (ok not 80% efficient or anything like it)
etc...


??

Split tarriffs reflect demand economy not energy efficiency.
This current model of demand economy only makes sense because the state has no decent batteries at their disposal!   

 linux
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andrewellis
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« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2018, 09:40:02 PM »

Exactly, given the problem of most of the power being generated in the summer, some way of taking it through to the winter would be great.  Audi has an interesting project which makes diesel from water and co2 at a reasonable efficiency.  If the technology is scalable to the garage that would be amazing.  Just fill your tank and run a generator in the winter.  Ok, the round trip efficiency is not brilliant but if you have the land you wouldn't need to put aside too much to get through the year. I doubt this will happen in my lifetime.
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6.48kw Solar PV JA (300W)Panels, SolarEdge inverter
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Scruff
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« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2018, 10:07:13 PM »

Here's a good argument for electrolysing hydrogen.

Clicky
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brackwell
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« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2018, 10:37:56 PM »

This is old news because that was before the Western HVDC link  which was built especailly to address this problem. Constraint payments also take place for other forms of leccy production remember, and they are a cost effective means of managing the Nat Grid.  The Western Link cost cú1B.  The constrained amount of leccy is peanuts compared to energy demand.  Anyways off topic.

Ken
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Scruff
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« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2018, 11:13:02 PM »

Old news or nay.

More turnips = more powah = more hydrogen = morah powah!

 extrahappy extrahappy extrahappy extrahappy
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Scruff
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« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2018, 11:17:00 PM »

...but fill the gas caverns first^
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pantsmachine
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« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2018, 12:54:36 AM »

We could wait a long time for government action on a large scale which should not preclude us from carrying out our own small scale endeavors. Same for efficiencies in accessible tech. Entropy is in everything and unavoidable so not a reason to choose not to but instead a consideration to be taken into account imho.

In saying the above, On a larger scale I have been impressed with SSE's offshore wind farms and their commitment so will be increasing my investment in them which is going off topic but only to show that my focus can be macro as well as micro.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 01:03:34 AM by pantsmachine » Logged

HUGE insulation depth.
5.12 kw PV system with Solar edge.
4.8 kw Pylon tech battery storage.
All Low energy bulbs.
Solar I boost charging 210 ltr OSO system tank.
Balanced & zoned CH wet system & Hive 2
Wood fired thermosiphon cedar hot tub.
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Scruff
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« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2018, 01:04:00 AM »

I don't advocate not to do anything. I'm saying if you do do, do it sensibly and learn to differentiate between marketing BS and practical applications.
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pantsmachine
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« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2018, 01:05:22 AM »

As am I. I would also throw out for thought that the chemical batteries with BMS are zero maintenance and qualify for a 'fit & forget' badge of merit. In my roving lifestyle where i can be away from home for long periods of time this is appealing.

It is likely to be appealing to a large percentage of the people going forward after the FIT's end. The tech price will hopefully continue to drop and those who choose to buy into PV will be doing it as a lifestyle choice and may see more value in 'fit & forget' rather than cost/return ratio. This last is entirely conjecture and largely from the coffee i have just consumed.

I am already tempted to buy a 3rd battery, say damn the cost and focus on the benefits of the excess PV generation it will store on the good days. Admittedly this does not take into account the cost of its manufacture & transportation from China to my home in Scotland but I only allow myself to obsess so far! I would love to see green mass storage come online, (it kills me when i see wind turbines idle) and will react accordingly when it does. I am going to read about gas caverns now.

I am currently involved in an offshore project which is producing 2 billion cu ft NG per day for Egypt 165k offshore at a WD of 1,500 mtrs. First time Egypt has even been self-sufficient in NG. Its not green, its not particularly cool BUT its not being transported across the globe and is a close source for the country. Different perspective...
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 01:35:03 AM by pantsmachine » Logged

HUGE insulation depth.
5.12 kw PV system with Solar edge.
4.8 kw Pylon tech battery storage.
All Low energy bulbs.
Solar I boost charging 210 ltr OSO system tank.
Balanced & zoned CH wet system & Hive 2
Wood fired thermosiphon cedar hot tub.
Masanobu Fukuoka inspired veg garden & fruit trees
Scruff
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« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2018, 01:56:39 AM »

In my roving lifestyle where i can be away from home for long periods of time this is appealing.


Use FLA.  Lose the BMS, turn the absorption down to 2.37V per cell.
Lots less likely burn yer house down with thermal runaway if it gets too hot or cold because a semiconductor fails or failsafe by isolating entire modules.

I am going to read about gas caverns now.

Find a large salt deposit. Inject pressurised hot water. Pump out saline. Congrats you've made an underground cavern. Fill it with pressurised air with abundant energy. Vent it through a pneumatic turnip when you want to extract power from your immortal battery. Simples.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 02:00:20 AM by Scruff » Logged
pantsmachine
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« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2018, 02:26:17 AM »

Thanks,
I appreciate the feedback. I'll look into both highlights as applicable.

Heather H
'There was a time the first piece of simple advice offered to anyone wanting to detach themselves from the grid was to fully understand their generation patterns and consumption needs, reduce consumption to what is actually necessary and then determine the best installation. Seems this fundamental first step is in danger of being skipped in favour of  "I must have a domestic battery - now how can I go about justifying it". Perhaps a bit more in-depth monitoring and then some simple time shifting of consumption might be a better starting point for most people - loads of options available at little or no cost to achieve this.'


I agree wholeheartedly with the above, its a huge part of it and is a simple 1st step to taking control of power consumption. I currently have a 200 watt background drain on the house and i will be addressing it on my return to base. It has a massive impact on the battery charge overnight and the game now is 'how low can i go'? A benefit of PV & battery of which i was previously unaware and had not considered.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 02:19:38 AM by pantsmachine » Logged

HUGE insulation depth.
5.12 kw PV system with Solar edge.
4.8 kw Pylon tech battery storage.
All Low energy bulbs.
Solar I boost charging 210 ltr OSO system tank.
Balanced & zoned CH wet system & Hive 2
Wood fired thermosiphon cedar hot tub.
Masanobu Fukuoka inspired veg garden & fruit trees
Nickel2
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Method mixed with Madness


« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2018, 07:18:19 AM »

With the increasing number of EV's forecast to be on our roads, is it better to have the wind generation ready and sitting in standby, or wait until everyone is charging their cars at the same time and the grid collapses? There is also the question of electric traction on the railways. Many new MU trains are power-hungry beasts with rapid acceleration and aircon. There have been studies recently that investigate the different types of traction-motor operation and how each draws power from the grid. (electronic poly-phase or D-C field control etc).
I would rather there be an excess of generators that have to be paid for, than a national collapse when fossil fuel generation winds down.
N2
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1.140kW mono south-facing at 49*
EpEver 4210A at 24v
24V 400 Ah battery. (4x200Ah FLA)
EpEver STI1000-24-230 pure sine inverter
Of course it'll work. (It hasn't caught fire yet).
kristen
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« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2018, 07:38:05 AM »

Kristen can you share with the class this Neo-Tesla "data" please?
Would you mind awfully citing the source and verifying the fidelity?

Can't attest to anything I'm afraid. As a news article it has probably appeared in a number of places, here is one such:

https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/29/tales-from-a-tesla-model-s-at-200k-miles/

That's a  Los Angeles - Las Vegas taxi, I've also read of a Dutch taxi with similar 6% degradation (my recollection is that was an airport-run taxi firm)

Quote
In the summary can you explain to me the following:

No don't think I can help with anything at that sort of level, I have no first hand information; however I think it likely you will find people that can answer such questions on a Tesla forum. There are a couple to choose from, but in terms of general discussion I would suggest Tesla Motor Club. It has a specific forum for Tesla Powerwall (mostly installation stuff, but there are some geeky folk there interested in collecting data etc etc and some technically-astute folk too, and (on the car side) some folk who have taken them to bits, "rooted" them, done write-off repairs (which is outside ANY support that Tesla is prepared to provide ...) and so on.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/forums/tesla-energy.159/

There are several generic sub-forums on that site, but I wouldn't say that battery performance is discussed much (in the sense that its not regarded as a problem) but you might have some joy in the Technical : Battery forum

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/forums/battery-discussion.40/
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kristen
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« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2018, 07:54:31 AM »

wait until everyone is charging their cars at the same time and the grid collapses?

Clearly we're going to need a solution for that scenario!

I'm imagining that smart meters and TOU will be the solution. Not sure I've found a good source (figures seem very low) but RAC report suggests that average car/van commute (accounting for 57% of UK population's commute) is 10 miles. My single-phase wall charger does 22 MPH, so 10 miles could achieved with half-an-hour sometime during the night.

I think also the possibility that charge-at-work will become a thing, which could mop up Solar excess when available.

So: nick the electricity at work to fully charge the car, come home, discharge car battery into grid at peak TOU for max-$$$ and then buy dirt cheap overnight surplus electricity, just enough to get to work Smiley

Page 11:
https://www.racfoundation.org/assets/rac_foundation/content/downloadables/car-and-the-commute-web-version.pdf
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brackwell
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« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2018, 08:10:39 AM »

 wait until everyone is charging their cars at the same time and the grid collapses?

Just not going to happen with demand being much more spread out but also TOU tariffs with smart meters will incentivise against that. The problem may arise with the very local network not being able to cope on a street by street level.
Ken
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