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Author Topic: Are batteries worth it, does this calculation work?  (Read 6396 times)
andrewellis
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« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2018, 08:41:19 AM »

It'll be interesting to see what will happen in the sticks too.  We have a 10kw transformer serving 3 houses.  I have a 60A fuse and I am guessing the neighbours have the same too.  As a worst case experiment I turned on the dishwasher, tumbledryer, GSHP at -6deg C,and charged the car.  The cooker on order is a range to try and avoid the massive instant power draw.  This came close to the 60A (14kw) very easily.  However, we are using as a single house more than the transformer rating so it will be interesting to see what happens this winter. 

As a comparison I've been doing some reading on the Nissan battery.  The original 2011 battery (24kwh)would appear to be at 50-60% charge after 150000 miles.  That would be the equivalent of ~1200 cycles from the battery.  The newer models appear to be performing better with some (few) meeting 95% capacity after 100,000 miles.  The battery treatment over the life time also appears to make a huge difference.  The general trend seems to be for 70% at 120-150,000 miles.  I do wonder if all these home batteries really will make 6000 cycles.

Supposedly all the technology is in the car to charge and discharge to from the house. It's a shame that we can't just drop the battery and plug it into a small controller to the house.  It would appear that the company is trying to make money by recycling the battery themselves and charging a ton of money for the privilege.  Given how charging/discharging rapidly reduces the capacity of the battery I am not sure I would want to use it as a conventional PV battery.  It seems like a nice idea on the face of it, but would prove to be an expensive way to age the car quickly.  Then Nissan could then charge a large amount of money to swap out the battery.
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phoooby
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« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2018, 09:01:59 AM »

OVO offer a V2G unit https://www.indra.co.uk/v2g/ with DC connection to connect a leaf. Buy second hand leaf and charger and leave it in you garage/drive. 20kWh home battery that is probably cheaper than x2 PW" or other options and with the added benefit you can use it to drive to the shops.

There is an OVO product to go with this where you buy cheap and sell at peak to gain a few hundred pounds per year. Not sure what V2H benefits it offers as not looked into it too much.

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andrewellis
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« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2018, 09:45:07 AM »

Oh, now to persuade my missus to let me build a little shed for the car, ahem i mean battery unit. In fact, I can put the car where the oil tank was!
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skyewright
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« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2018, 10:14:59 AM »

In saying the above, On a larger scale I have been impressed with SSE's offshore wind farms and their commitment so will be increasing my investment in them which is going off topic but only to show that my focus can be macro as well as micro.
Also off-topic, but SSE are also involved in several new pumped storage schemes. Around here most people still think  of them as Scottish Hydro.
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Regards
David
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brackwell
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« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2018, 10:25:45 AM »

I wish they would get on and build the one on the side of Loch Ness.  They are obviously waiting for more favourable financially.  Up in Scotland the grid charges are greater, because they are further away from the cities and pumped storage ends up paying twice both to and from.  When the Scottish Islands get going the storage will become even more imperative.  The Gov needs to tell the Nat Grid to mend its ways and without any bung.
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Scruff
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« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2018, 10:38:42 AM »

Can't attest to anything I'm afraid.

Interesting. Do you not find it alarming that the basic operation parameters of the battery is not published? Who benefits the most from this do you think?
I could answer most of these questions from the datasheet of a genuine manufacturer for any battery I would consider buying.

Do you think people would be as willing to buy an equally ambiguous amount of say diesel or would they like to know the volume?

...Tesla batteries used in their cars (which have a decent battery-management-system).

What did you base this statement on so given you can't even tell me the upper and lower voltage cut-offs?


I've also read of a Dutch taxi with similar 6% degradation (my recollection is that was an airport-run taxi firm)

Moving 1.5ton with wheels 200 000 miles is not such an achievement as I think you believe it is, that battery is lightly worked compared to the claims.

No don't think I can help with anything at that sort of level, I have no first hand information;

Curious.
Why advocate it so?
Doesn't bother me, it's a proprietary system. Not something I'd get involved with.
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Tinbum
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« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2018, 11:03:27 AM »

I wish they would get on and build the one on the side of Loch Ness.  They are obviously waiting for more favourable financially. 

https://assets.abundanceinvestment.com/docs/projects/investment-updates/2018_07_02_ILIPumpStorageHydro_update.pdf
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brackwell
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« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2018, 11:11:07 AM »

I was referring to the Coire Glas one by SSE which has had planning permission for some yrs now.
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RIT
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« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2018, 11:45:43 AM »

With the increasing number of EV's forecast to be on our roads, is it better to have the wind generation ready and sitting in standby, or wait until everyone is charging their cars at the same time and the grid collapses? There is also the question of electric traction on the railways. Many new MU trains are power-hungry beasts with rapid acceleration and aircon. There have been studies recently that investigate the different types of traction-motor operation and how each draws power from the grid. (electronic poly-phase or D-C field control etc).
I would rather there be an excess of generators that have to be paid for, than a national collapse when fossil fuel generation winds down.
N2

The whole point of smart meters is to allow for "time of use" tariffs, so the grid will be well prepared for when electric cars show up in volume.

With TOU pricing all home charging will take place overnight when the grid has about 10GW of spare capacity. During the day TOU pricing will mean that users end up paying the costs of purchasing additional generation capacity to keep up with demand.
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MeatyFool
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« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2018, 01:23:01 PM »

The car in the garage as a home battery is my hope!  Gen2 Leaf is capable of charging from and discharging to the house, but my 2015 Leaf is not able to do so.

I was hoping that in 4-5 years time someone will have developed an after-market product that essentially bypasses the standard drive train.  Not sure it is even possible!

Of course, in 4-5 years time, the cost of a domestic battery may be much lower, so that the trade-in value of the car plus the "gizmo" is as much or more than the equivalent storage capacity of fresh batteries.

Meatyfool..
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phoooby
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« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2018, 02:34:03 PM »

Meatyfool. As per my link posted above, Indra have made a V2G system using the chademo DC connection. From what I understand they are making these for OVO and will eventually sell them in their own right, presumably for V2H purposes. Might be worth contacting them to see how much they are and when available. Apparently works on all gen 1.5 onward leafs (the ones without the electric handbrake).
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MeatyFool
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« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2018, 03:27:29 PM »

Thanks phooby.

My mistake - I thought it only worked for Gen2 onwards.  I did apply to take part in the trial, but after applying realised that I didn't fit the trial requirements (can't remember why!)

Meatyfool..
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MeatyFool
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« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2018, 03:39:50 PM »

Phooby,

Just checked the OVO indra link - not quite what I had in mind.  The unit discharges back to the grid rather than into the home.  So OVO gets to use some of my car charge to sell on and gives me a portion of that sale back as my incentive.

As opposed to me being able to discharge from my car at a time of my choice (TOU - peak time), which *might* be better for me.

If I remember correctly, there was quite a discussion here regarding the financial implications when it was first launched.

Meatyfool..
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heatherhopper
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« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2018, 09:05:44 PM »

I am constantly reminded of a slight variation on the square hole round peg type game when reading some of the visionary speculation regarding integration of batteries, EVs etc with the grid. Normally a straight forward puzzle and great cognitive development for infants but have you ever watched a child who has been given access to shapes that look more attractive than the correct ones but don't quite fit, with an added incentive of a brownie point if they do manage to fit them in. Good fun to start with but certain to ends in tears and tantrums.

Scruff - you have me paranoid about my Makita batteries. They look absolutely fine on the outside, sort of..... well, fit and forget. Are you telling me there is something fiendishly unknowable lurking inside?
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phoooby
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« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2018, 09:32:23 PM »

Meatyfool. Yes it seems to be V2G at the moment. I read about it and concluded they thash the living daylights out of your battery and give you 2-300 pa. I decided it was not for me despite them saying it would actually benefit the battery as charge/discharge would be managed. Probably a good idea for someone with a company car or leased leaf.

Maybe they will offer the same unit as V2H in the future so it can be used for home PV storage and you are not tied to OVO. I can see that being a good idea as you get a much larger battery to store PV and the unit would hopefully be cheaper than buying separate batteries. Nissan seem to have made something but I seem to recall it was going to cost over 3000. Also found this article from this year. https://www.zap-map.com/franklin-energy-and-powervault-partner-for-smart-home-charging/#more-40556
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Nissan Leaf 24 (gone)
Tesla Model S
Nissan env-200
88k ev miles and rising
6kw WBS
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