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Author Topic: zinc-air battery  (Read 4597 times)
billi
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« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2018, 12:27:17 PM »

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While many people on this forum may have local generation in the form of PV or wind, the vast majority do not and am unlikely to ever have


Why not ?  should be a must and suported !    Its  stange enough , that everyhouse has a car or three  , so how is that selfunderstood ?
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« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2018, 05:05:27 PM »

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While many people on this forum may have local generation in the form of PV or wind, the vast majority do not and am unlikely to ever have


Why not ?  should be a must and suported !    Its  stange enough , that everyhouse has a car or three  , so how is that selfunderstood ?

Well the number of UK homes is around 25M and the number of registered cars is around 32M, so that's only a car and a bit on average. It also means that for any household that you know with 3 cars, there is at least 1 household with no cars.

As for the majority of people every having the funds to invest in the future (via PV or wind) it's never going to happen. The majority of people have zero free income for such things. Just basic stats such as the UK 'Post-Tac income Percentiles' show the state of things, 50% of the UK working population have a yearly take-home income of less than 20,000 and if someone manages 30,000 (after tax) that puts them in the top 20% of incomes.

Few people selected to install PV when the payback worked out at around 7 years, with 18 years of additional tax-free return. Just consider how the calculations now work, and hopefully, no future government is going to be stupid enough to offer the level of FiTs/bribes to get people interested again.

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GarethC
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« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2018, 05:26:02 PM »

What would the installed cost of a 4kW system, for a house with average electricity use, have to fall to, and/or the price of electricity have to rise to in the UK, before the payback period fell to 5 years assuming no subsidy (but for argument's sake assuming you still get paid for export)? Is that even plausible? At that point, income becomes somewhat less important, as it's such a screaming good investment that you'd take out a loan, and any bank would finance it as it pays for itself.
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RIT
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« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2018, 05:43:47 PM »

What would the installed cost of a 4kW system, for a house with average electricity use, have to fall to, and/or the price of electricity have to rise to in the UK, before the payback period fell to 5 years assuming no subsidy (but for argument's sake assuming you still get paid for export)? Is that even plausible? At that point, income becomes somewhat less important, as it's such a screaming good investment that you'd take out a loan, and any bank would finance it as it pays for itself.

The real issue is that without any formal payback process installing PV on its own for most people is a poor idea. Pv generates electricity during the day, but most households use much of there electricity during the evening. So a standalone PV installation mainly generates electricity free of charge for the 'greater good' rather than the person who installed it.

So the next logical set is to consider the cost of PV plus some form of home-based battery storage so that energy generated during the day can be used within the home during the evening hours. The problem with this is that currently, the best costing's anyone has come up with for a 'no hassle' battery storage system is about 8p per kWh of energy stored and that is over the quoted lifetime of a solution if it is fully charged and discharged daily. Such a situation is rather unlikely considering yearly PV generation in the UK.
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« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2018, 07:13:17 PM »

So the next logical set is to consider the cost of PV plus some form of home-based battery storage


Or net metering, it is so much simpler.
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RIT
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« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2018, 07:30:35 PM »

Or net metering, it is so much simpler.

Net metering is going to require a long-term government commitment and a fully working smart meter system. I'm not sure which if either will ever happen. 

There is also going to be the issue that if we ever see net metering implemented in the UK, its daytime rate is going to be very low unless priced based on there being votes to be gained. I'm not sure it will help the calculations for PV if the daytime net meter rate ends up in the 4-5p range.
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billi
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« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2018, 11:24:17 PM »

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Just consider how the calculations now work, and hopefully, no future government is going to be stupid enough to offer the level of FiTs/bribes to get people interested again.
do you mean , the  next  decades  of electricity  monney collected, from  Joe averager is  fine, to be exported to France and China ? , instead of keeping it in the country ? in a democratic society,  why on earth should not evey  generoter get similar tariffs for green electicity supplied to the grid ,  than China is paid for ?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 08:29:59 AM by billi » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2018, 10:40:12 AM »

do you mean , the  next  decades  of electricity  monney collected, from  Joe averager is  fine, to be exported to France and China ? , instead of keeping it in the country ? in a democratic society,  why on earth should not evey  generoter get similar tariffs for green electicity supplied to the grid ,  than China is paid for ?

Well, the government's narrow focus on high-cost nuclear power seems to be failing as the CfD rates drop. There is also the point that this focus has always been about the government's belief that the country needs a large base load supply, so I guess I would have no issue at all with FiTs paying out 8p per kWh to any household that can provide a 24x7 constant supply 99% of the time as that is the proposed rate for Wylfa if it ever happens.

As for the involvement of the French and Chinese, so what! Over the last 30 or so years, our governments for one reason or another have created the situation where we have no capability to design and build such systems. Even if we had maintained the capability with the constant central funding that would have required any new power plants would have involved global investors to fund the building costs. When you consider how few investors want to be involved in new build nuclear, that would have left us needing the sovereign wealth funds of countries such as China and such investments always come with strings attached.

A more critical issue is that if we had maintained a UK based nuclear industry all focus would have been on getting the best possible return on the business, so over the last 15+ years our government would have been 100% focussed on building 'low carbon' nuclear and 0% focussed on deploying alternatives such as wind. Personally I rather glad that they did not have this option.
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« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2018, 06:06:36 PM »

Or net metering, it is so much simpler.

Net metering is going to require a long-term government commitment and a fully working smart meter system. I'm not sure which if either will ever happen. 

There is also going to be the issue that if we ever see net metering implemented in the UK, its daytime rate is going to be very low unless priced based on there being votes to be gained. I'm not sure it will help the calculations for PV if the daytime net meter rate ends up in the 4-5p range.

But what's wrong with a dumb meter that goes backwards? we buy a kWh for 15p and we sell a kWh for 15p forget smart metering for the purpose of feeding home brewed leccy into the grid. Smart metering should be for demand management shouldn't it?

Desp
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« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2018, 08:58:56 AM »

AC induction clamp meters are pretty dumb. They don't do backwards.
Alternating current oscillates. The electrons themselves are inverting polarity at 50hertz.
It's impossible to tell load direction without using two differential meters or power factor calculations.

DC meters utilise the hall effect which has a constant magnetic field, or they are shunted with a hard-wired polarity identifier.
Canya shunt AC?  Huh
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« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2018, 09:01:33 AM »

My last dumb (british gas: freebie) meter read export as positive. When I was exporting it displayed power in use...so when I turned on the kitchen lights onna sunny day it told me I was using less powah.  laugh
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Westie
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« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2018, 09:46:57 AM »

AC induction clamp meters are pretty dumb. They don't do backwards.
Alternating current oscillates. The electrons themselves are inverting polarity at 50hertz.
It's impossible to tell load direction without using two differential meters or power factor calculations.

DC meters utilise the hall effect which has a constant magnetic field, or they are shunted with a hard-wired polarity identifier.
Canya shunt AC?  Huh
If you ever manage to invert the charge of an electron you'll be awarded a Nobel prize😀
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« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2018, 09:55:41 AM »

Invert Direction to manipulate magnetic flux. AC polarity is a convention...term of speech.  
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billi
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« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2018, 11:40:39 AM »

RiT  ,   there is no need for  urgently battery based PV in the UK !  the highest PV percentage in the UK electricity mix was "Electricity mix at 2.12pm on 30 June 2018, %"   and PV had "only" 27.8 %
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/02/uk-heatwave-helps-solar-power-to-record-weekly-highs


So tell me , why should that not be 127.8%  and more ,  so those 27.8 % can then be stored for later use ?
In times where we talk about electric transport, electric heating , electric showers ,  bitcoins and coputers on  all day ?  No idea why you think that Hinkley Point  is a good reliable deal , when the sun is there and PV is cheaper
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« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2018, 11:49:11 AM »


But what's wrong with a dumb meter that goes backwards? we buy a kWh for 15p and we sell a kWh for 15p forget smart metering for the purpose of feeding home brewed leccy into the grid. Smart metering should be for demand management shouldn't it?

Desp

There are 2 key issues

- The market cost of a unit of electricity varies over the day, so electricity generated on a sunny day via PV is unlikely to have the same market value as the electricity consumed at 7pm the same evening.

- The price paid for each kWh of electricity includes a lot more than just the generation cost. While most bills now have a standing charge element this does not truly cover the additional costs.


The first issue will one day be fixed with smart meters, but notice how no one in government talks about the introduction of such tariffs being the real value of the smart meter rollout.

The second issue is far more complex for the UK marketplace. We just do not do fully itemised billing in the way that much of the US does. Without a bill that truly breaks down all the different charges, you can't just roll back the meter. You can see what I mean if you look at page 2 of this example USA bill

    https://www.peco.com/MyAccount/MyBillUsage/Pages/Business100kWBillpg1.aspx

As you can see there are separate items for different aspects of meter charging, delivery, generation, transmission and tax. A UK bill would also have to include environmental and social costs, which are just hidden redistribution taxes to cover the cost of things like FiTs/CoD and the fact that energy is now so costly that people on low incomes get subsidised via the energy bills.


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Why bother? - well, there is no planet B
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