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Author Topic: ‘Huge growth’ in residential storage for 2019.  (Read 703 times)
stannn
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« on: October 09, 2018, 01:04:21 PM »

https://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/grid_trading_and_off_peak_incentives_to_spark_huge_growth_for_residential_s?utm_source=rss-feeds&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=general
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 01:07:36 PM by stannn » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2018, 01:23:00 PM »

Good Afternoon All,

I see the latest Fully Charged is about Powervault. I still feel battery storage needs to be more centralised rather than distributed and it still doesn't make outright financial sense?

Regards

Richard
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kristen
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2018, 04:58:39 PM »

I'm happy to have one in the house as I work from home and that would give me some protection against power cuts, so I can justify cost partly from "less downtime" rather than "payback" per se.

Tide is offering 6p on E7 I think? My current E7 (from memory) is 8p. Tide have penalty TOC rate in early evening, so kinda needs battery for that period.  Maybe the two together start to make some financial sense?

I don't understand why some Utility hasn't cornered the market, in the same way that Rockerfella decided that owning the oil-pipeline transportation, and making it available to all, was a master stroke.  Power Utility could put a battery in my house, give me an appealing flat rate per-unit, or some other minor inducement, and distribute storage in that way.  Maybe it would enable them to allow higher generation per property in the immediate vicinity as a consequence?  They could control the discharge-to-grid according to whatever made sense to them.

If you move the distributed storage to even 10 miles away I would probably have just as many powercuts from fallen branches and JCB's going through the cable, along with the scheduled-maintenance, so I don't see much benefit to the consumer, albeit that it might make grid-smoothing easier for Utility.
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RIT
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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2018, 05:44:45 PM »

I don't understand why some Utility hasn't cornered the market, in the same way that Rockerfella decided that owning the oil-pipeline transportation, and making it available to all, was a master stroke.  Power Utility could put a battery in my house, give me an appealing flat rate per-unit, or some other minor inducement, and distribute storage in that way.  Maybe it would enable them to allow higher generation per property in the immediate vicinity as a consequence?  They could control the discharge-to-grid according to whatever made sense to them.

It is just down to economies of scale, deploying a single system with say 100MWh of storage capacity is far cheaper than deploying 12,500 home based systems of the same total capacity. This was the reason why once Rockerfeller's oil-pipline worked, once deployed it was far cheaper than any other solution and so was used to capacity.  Rockefeller also did a lot more - the pipelines went to his railway network which then took the oil to his refineries, such vertical integration is not possible in the UK power network.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 10:08:49 PM by RIT » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2018, 06:31:17 AM »

I don't understand why some Utility hasn't cornered the market, in the same way that Rockerfella decided that owning the oil-pipeline transportation, and making it available to all, was a master stroke.  Power Utility could put a battery in my house, give me an appealing flat rate per-unit, or some other minor inducement, and distribute storage in that way.  Maybe it would enable them to allow higher generation per property in the immediate vicinity as a consequence?  They could control the discharge-to-grid according to whatever made sense to them.

It is just down to economies of scale

While there are some economies associated with increasing size, it looks like the picture at the systems level is a little more complicated. Storage can have several roles, and depending on the roles being played by a particular installation, its location and optimal size will vary. For storage that's levelling out a daily load, then the substation is probably the optimal location, and the optimal size will depend on that substation's load. For storage that's providing a seasonal service, then large national storage facilities with a dedicated connection to the transmission grid are probably optimal (and this is unlikely to be batteries). For storage that's meeting a bunch of ancillary services (capacity market, frequency reserve, some arbitrage) it looks like some size in between those two is optimal.
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kristen
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2018, 07:33:52 AM »

It is just down to economies of scale, deploying a single system with say 100MWh of storage capacity is far cheaper than deploying 12,500 home based systems of the same total capacity.

Yup, I'm sure that's why they aren't doing it, but I can't help thinking they are missing a trick in pursuit of shareholder profits.

If individuals choose to do that then Utility doesn't have to build that capability (peaker-plants etc.) ... but they have also lost control of it and will just resort to blunt-weapon solutions such as TOU metering.

Finding the land-space at e.g. substations may also prove to limit their choices (although that's just my WAG ...)
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brackwell
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« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2018, 08:10:00 AM »

Looking at the big picture i can see problems down the line with domestic batts.  At the moment our grid system works because demand patterns are well known and time spread, but with domestic batts and EVs that demand is not known or controlled. At the moment the distribution at street level works because we do not all cook,shower,kettle,fridges etc all at the same time.  If we did do these activities all at the same time the system would go bang.  So we are now looking at the possibility of 1/2 the street all charging their EVs and domestic batts at the same time on E7 and there can only be one outcome-bang. I think this will be giving the DNOs sleepless nights.

Ken

PS that article is complete marketing BS and not worthy of this forum.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 08:15:02 AM by brackwell » Logged
RIT
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« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2018, 10:52:22 AM »

If we did do these activities all at the same time the system would go bang.  So we are now looking at the possibility of 1/2 the street all charging their EVs and domestic batts at the same time on E7 and there can only be one outcome-bang. I think this will be giving the DNOs sleepless nights.

The DNO's are expecting far fewer sleepless nights than most of the press reports indicate.

The 'all cars charging at one-time myth' - how many articles do you see that focus on the fact that all the UK petrol stations will run dry if everyone filled up their cars at the same time? The reality is that EVs will only need charging after they have driven somewhere and in 2017 the average yearly distant covered by a car was only 7,800 miles (taken from a RAC report). Even if an average car only does just 3 miles to a kWh, it will only need 2,600kWh of charge over the whole year. It's not as if our road network would cope with everyone going out on the same day for a very long drive so that they can then all try and charge up at the same time that night.

There is also a lot of spare generation capacity overnight, hence the reason why E7 is 'currently' so cheap. The drop between peak usage at around 7pm to the overnight usage is around 15GW, or a total nightly capacity of around 90GWh. It will be sometime before that is consumed and hopefully, before then variable rate charging units for cars and home storage that monitor the frequency signals (or at least the voltage drop) will be the norm.
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Why bother? - well, there is no planet B
brackwell
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« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2018, 11:31:05 AM »

RIT,
You have completly confused yourself there. I was not talking at National level for which i totally agree with you, but at street level there could be issues. Many housing estates suffer voltage drop on Xmas day cooking and thats only 3kw not 7 kw EVs and x kw batts.

Ken
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billi
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« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2018, 11:36:12 AM »

Quote
It is just down to economies of scale, deploying a single system with say 100MWh of storage capacity is far cheaper than deploying 12,500 home
isnt the UK house limited to a 16 KW powerline , so  that was partial or the main  reason  most PV s where below  4000 watt , a battery could   change that
Its as well  needed to look at an aspect of decentral  batteries , we will face   more electricity usage as heating and driving  moves on  towards more electric ideas ,  thats thome benefits of decentral storage , as the Grid network  is not stressed as much ....

My  battery  is  still working  and   since i got it  it was costing me sofar about 8 GBP per month   or about   6 pence per KWh  delivered ( asuming about 3 kWh per dayand night came out of the battery  of  those 7-9 kWh the house needed on a daily bases

The  price  home owners  pay for energy  and will pay much more in future  is higher than  utility companies  are paying , so i would say its kind of a  consequence that those homeowners say , they invest

Billi
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RIT
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« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2018, 12:34:30 PM »

RIT,
You have completly confused yourself there. I was not talking at National level for which i totally agree with you, but at street level there could be issues. Many housing estates suffer voltage drop on Xmas day cooking and thats only 3kw not 7 kw EVs and x kw batts.

Ken

The 'Xmas day' draw for an electric cooker with the oven, rings and even the grill running is a lot more than 3kw, hence the reason why they are normally wired via a dedicated 35Amp spur. It is quite funny walking around somewhere like Currys, where all the electric cookers are often posted as having an energy consumption of < 1kWh but need a 35Amp connection.

Again you are using a known 'peak' demand that lasts for 3-4 hours once a year and then extrapolating it over much longer time periods. As my last post indicated the average demand for charging an EV maybe 2,600kWh for the year or just 7kWh a night.

You are also excluding the issue that the 'Xmas day' draw increases the normal evening demand, so it is truly the worse case situation as it is an extra demand on top of what could be a normal overall demand across the country of around 40GW. Currently, the average demand during the E7 hours is around 25GW.

The bottom line is that today the grid (both national and local) has at least 15GW of spare capacity during the E7 hours. That is enough to allow 2m EVs to charge at a constant load of 7kw for 6 hours. For those EVs to then need to fully charge again the next day they each have to go out and each travel 120 odd miles (at 3 miles per kWh), or a total of 252m miles in a day.

The problems will start once we have many millions of electric car, van and trucks. In 2016 the total distant travelled on UK roads was 442B miles. The electrify all that travel is an issue to be addressed over the next 15-30 years.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 01:03:19 PM by RIT » Logged

2.4kW PV system, output can be seen at  - https://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?userid=49083

Why bother? - well, there is no planet B
Sprinter
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« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2018, 09:16:27 AM »

Quote
Many housing estates suffer voltage drop on Xmas day cooking and thats only 3kw not 7 kw EVs and x kw batts

This is undoubtedly true, however i feel it misses the point, These locations that suffer power drop are running at peak local capacity on that particular day and that particular scenario, our cooking is electric so we are one of the culprits that are adding to that problem, whilst we might be one of the culprits we are not at fault, that is the supply chain that has made a financial argument to deploy a power grid of XX capacity that can just about cope almost all of the time rather than something larger that can cope all of the time.

I am going to use the same amount of electric this Christmas as last Christmas, but this Christmas my batteries are going to supplement my draw reducing it by 1.2kWh, if another house in our locality had batteries of a similar nature they would add a further 1.2kWh reduction and so on, which actually helps the  situation rather than hindering it.

However a large semi centralized (not on our part of the grid) is going to make no difference to this particular part of the problem as its the local substation to the houses, that have the issue, batteries on the housing side of the substation however will help that scenario, generation isn't the issue here, its supply

There are arguments for and against, i get that, economic and "must have shiny toy", holding off until the price is right or buying now for any self justified personal reason, but i don't see the dislike for household batteries, personally i would rather control my own power to some little extent than trust a centralized corporate who's sole intention it to make money (or save it which is the same thing when it comes to profit generation), i don't think i have ever seen a central corporation do something good for the end user just screw them over, which is part of the reason i bought batteries and have them in my own garage under my own control.
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brackwell
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« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2018, 10:09:35 AM »

Us PVers know that for about 2 months of the yr PV output is very low.  With smart meters and time of use tariffs people will charge there batts and EVs at night on E7 -why would you not.  I do not believe that many street cables will be able to take this potential load (the national grid will not have any issues).  On my estate i had low voltage during the winter months and had to contact Ofgem before it was rectified and this was before EVs and domestic batts.  True its not going to be a problem for quite a few yrs yet but lets just wait eh.

Ken
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kristen
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« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2018, 10:11:49 AM »

Many housing estates suffer voltage drop on Xmas day cooking and thats only 3kw not 7 kw EVs and x kw batts.

Infrastructure not yet there, of course, but when I can say "I need the car charged to X-Miles for 7AM" then a Smart Meter/etc. could determine best time to load-share to acheive that

isnt the UK house limited to a 16 KW powerline , so  that was partial or the main  reason  most PV s where below  4000 watt , a battery could   change that

We are about to install more PV, which will take us over the export limit. We will fit something to limit the export, and then use the surplus onsite generation "locally" (battery in our case)


Will the continent (i.e. where they routinely fit 3-Phase residential supply) be better off in this regard? (although i think lower AMPs-per-phase, so maybe same thing overall?)

So: In future make sure EV Car fully charged on XMas day so that ti can be plugged into house V2G to enable Cooking of Turkey?  Grin
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« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2018, 11:41:36 AM »

Quote
isnt the UK house limited to a 16 KW powerline , so  that was partial or the main  reason  most PV s where below  4000 watt

Just got permission though Monday for 10kw PV and a PW2. All on single phase in an urban /modern estate location. Not much other PV around, probably 2-3 4kw systems within 100m radius of me. I guess my approval will have a negative effect on what others in the area can install in the future unless they go 3 phase which was going to be £4-5k for me to do. I am hoping for a big dent in the leccy bill as had my first 100kWh day  Shocked this week when we both did quite a bit of driving.
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