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Author Topic: BMW i3 to get another battery upgrade and no more ReX  (Read 696 times)
dan_b
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« on: October 09, 2018, 02:55:50 PM »

https://electrek.co/2018/10/05/bmw-i3-all-electric-gas-range-extender/

Interesting. And about time.
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kristen
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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2018, 04:49:57 PM »

I think Range Extenders are a good idea, but maybe I'm wrong-footed?

Instead of giving people like me a 90kWh battery, give 2x as many people a 40kWh battery (and range-extender).  I use the second-40kWh of my battery a coupe of times a month ... I use the first 40kWh every day ... so that would mean more EV miles for the global fleet - less pollution, less fossil fuel used, etc.

And Range Extender will mean no range anxiety for a new EV owner, whist they get used to it.

Once there are enough battery factories for all the cars made annually n the world then fine, I can have a battery as big as I like.
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dan_b
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2018, 09:47:34 PM »

I get where you're coming from, except, like other forms of hybrid, it ends up complicating and compromising the whole vehicle - rather than a BEV being a relatively simple machine with few moving parts (and therefore easier to design and cheaper to maintain), you end up with a messy old petrol generator, fuel tank, exhaust, filters, oil change requirements and all that additional service stuff. Not to mention the space then lost inside the vehicle to the generator which could be used for something else?  And if it limits the BEV range so much and you end up relying on the ReX often (as is the case with the new EV London Taxi) it sort of further perpetuates the myth that BEVs "don't work" and have "range issues"...

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JohnS
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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2018, 10:10:55 PM »

I think that there is a lot of difference between a range extender and a PHEV hybrid.

A range extender is just a small ICE and generator.  It ought to be able to run at the optimal power output for efficient charging.

A PHEV has a has a full size engine, complete with gearbox, transmission, drive shafts etc, which gives it a lot of added complexity.  The engine will run at a large variety or revs and output.  It must be able to behave like a normal ICE when the battery is depleted.

What I don't know is whether a ReX can drive with the generator running when the battery is depleted, or whether you need to start charging earlier so the battery just goes down more slowly.
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GarethC
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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2018, 11:14:43 PM »

I'm 100% with Kristen. I bet a 40kWh range extender would manage 90% of the emissions and energy saving of an 80kWh BEV. Far better for the planet to use that expensive, rare battery in two rex vehicles rather than one BEV. And they'd probably be cheaper.

And OK even if you don't have off street parking and charging if you can charge at work or elsewhere. An hour or less to charge with any kind of rapid charging. Low maintenance costs, as the ICE would never have many miles on it. Zero range anxiety. Unlike PHEVs, where many owners just don't bother charging them, as it's not worth it, especially on long journeys, the battery range would be used intensively. Could ensure zero emissions in built up areas easily. The benefits seem great to me.
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kristen
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2018, 07:51:28 AM »

you end up with a messy old petrol generator, fuel tank, exhaust, filters, oil change requirements and all that additional service stuff.

yes, agreed, but I think its only a short term solution (until battery production is on-stream and meets 100% of requirements)

Short term it keeps existing car-dealer network, and mechanics/service, happy too, so eases that transition. And the "you end up with a messy old ..." Smiley is all "well understood technology" Smiley

Quote
Not to mention the space then lost inside the vehicle

Yup, my EV is cavernous ... but people coming from ICE don't have that currently, so I don't think one/two-more-car-ownership without would hurt much.

Quote
And if it limits the BEV range so much and you end up relying on the ReX often (as is the case with the new EV London Taxi) it sort of further perpetuates the myth that BEVs "don't work" and have "range issues"...

Yes, definitely should not be too small. I think 40kWh would be OK - to ensure that you could go at least 100 miles before using Range Extender.  Electricity is hugely cheaper than Petrol, so there is incentive, more so for higher-mileage drivers. A 50-mile commute (11,000 miles p.a.) would be about 290 on E7, for ICE its 1,300 at 50MPG and 2,200 at 30 MPG ...

It ought to be able to run at the optimal power output for efficient charging.

Tesla Model-S charged from generator with a gallon of diesel went further than a Volvo V40 (T5 2L diesel) Smiley  As you said: Generator runs at optimal revs/efficiency, and without having to manage pollution control mechanisms with varying revs etc etc

https://electrek.co/2018/02/16/tesla-model-s-charged-diesel-generator/
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GarethC
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« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2018, 08:03:41 AM »

According to UK stats, 97% of individual trips are less than 50 miles. Many of these will be half of daily commutes, so we can say that 97% of daily car usage is less than 100 miles with confidence. Total daily miles will be a bit less, as very long trips will drag the average down, but if your rex can do 100 miles on leccy, you could assume that at least 50% of even the very few very long trips will be on electricity. Long story short, a 40kWh, 100 mile electric range rex should, as I say, reduce emissions and energy use of at least 90% of a BEV with shorter charging times (and can fully charge even on a 3kW charger overnight) and no range anxiety and even if you don't have your own charger.

Can you tell I want a range extender?
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Nickel2
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« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2018, 08:18:59 AM »

My nearest bit of seaside is 53 miles away as a lost crow flies, so 106 miles of A roads, plus 30 miles of tootling about would suit me.
Nearest rellies are 50 miles away, farthest 305 miles; for me that means start the day fully charged, drive 150m, get there, plug it in. Stop overnight and reverse the process. A larger battery would certainly remove "Range Excitement", and would be preferable to IC.
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« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2018, 10:09:44 AM »

This has all come about because of the changes in pollution testing but mostly because the German Gov has reduced subsidies for EVs with FF motors.

As a EV useer one of the advantages is no maintenance and reduced tax but why pay more in the first place and lug this weight around most of the time to the point of reducing range by 5% .  Just to save the 2 occasions you need to plug it in during the journey.   No doubt people will end up with oversized batts and cars just like they have oversized engines and SUVs now -- madness
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« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2018, 10:25:31 AM »

I think Range Extenders are a good idea, but maybe I'm wrong-footed?

From the BMW bod:
Quote
we believe the customer demand is shifting to an pure-electric model

So there we have it. Whatever you or I might think, that's how BMW read the market. The invisible hand is a terrible master, but a phenomenally helpful servant, and here we see a chance for it to do what it does well: choose between different alternatives according to what customers want most. If BMW are right, they'll sell more cars. If BMW are wrong, then more companies will sell small-battery cars with range-extenders, and they will out-sell BMW.
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GarethC
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« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2018, 02:01:47 PM »

Well I reckon BMW have called the market incorrectly. If Toyota triple the size of the battery in its PHEV (thereby attracting a higher UK PICG incidentally, at least for now), I think they will have a very popular car on their hands (because it's a practically sized car, not a silly wee city car like the i3). Time will tell.
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phoooby
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« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2018, 03:26:08 PM »

I assume to mean Mitsubishi with the PHEV. Toyota only do those highly advance "self charging" cars  hysteria
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« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2018, 10:19:41 AM »

From the BMW bod:
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we believe the customer demand is shifting to an pure-electric model

The only snag I foresee with that is that I don't believe there will be enough batteries to go round (for next 10 years).

German Auto is breaking-ground on new Battery Factories, but that will be a while coming on stream ...

China looks like earmarking their (massive) Battery production for their own EVs (so good chance that there will be plenty of Chinese-brand EVs to be had ...)

VW has placed massive order for Batteries, to secure supply, but even that Big Number is still a pretty small proportion of the total cars they make ...

i-Pace (and some others) talk of "20K units p.a." . If they have a rip-roaring success I expect they could easily ramp up production of the car itself ... but the batteries?  I doubt they will be able to "just buy more" from 3rd party.

If battery supply is limited, and people want EVs, then price will go up and car makers make more profit, and supply & demand satisfied ...

... but if some other Marques have plenty of batteries BMW, and any others who are battery-supply-limited, will be up-the-swanny
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kristen
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« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2018, 10:29:24 AM »

why pay more in the first place and lug this weight around most of the time to the point of reducing range by 5% .  Just to save the 2 occasions you need to plug it in during the journey.   No doubt people will end up with oversized batts and cars just like they have oversized engines and SUVs now -- madness

I have an oversized battery, if I could get an EV with 400 mile range battery I'd buy that; but only so that that would save me road-charging a couple of times a month, and probably reduce it to "once a year". (That would be a much more sensible decision when battery-density magically improves; right now I would add a tonne to the weight of the car ... for every journey I made ...)

For me its business use, and my rationale is:

Must be able to reach Client, and return to a rapid charger. I absolutely do not want to, ever, have to charge on the outbound trip when charging time is unpredictable (stalls occupied, and wait is not just "a coupe of minutes for the guy in front").  200 miles is touch-and-go on a small proportion of my business trips, depending on the "From Client back to Rapid-charger distance". When rapid-chargers are as common as Petrol stations that problem will go away.

I don't mind charging on the way home, but even that is "time is money" when I'm working.  if I can do Emails (which I would otherwise have to do when I got back to base) its pretty time-neutral (its not like ICE where you have to stand-and-pump and then queue-to-pay Smiley )

So I'm lugging around 50% more battery than I routinely need, just to accommodate the journeys I make 2 days a month. I may also take the old ICE on longer journeys just because it is easier (routinely we always take the EV, but there are times when its (currently) in the "too difficult" category.

So I could do what-I-currently do just as easily, in fact more so, with a Range Extender.
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Nickel2
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« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2018, 11:51:08 AM »

Not quite the same league, Hyundai Kona electric has an optional 64kWh pack that is supposed to give 300kM or so.
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