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Author Topic: Industrial battery opportunity charging  (Read 1496 times)
andrewellis
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« on: November 09, 2018, 06:33:53 PM »

Billi posted on another part of the forum that a 60kwh forklift lead acid battery would give 80%*60*1500 = 72,000kwh. 

Having read around the subject it would seem that opportunistic charging which is what timeshifting solar pv would be is a big no no.  Each small charge counts as a cycle.  How do people run lead acid batteries?  Do you have two separate blocks whereby one is used to power the house until 20%.  Meanwhile the other is being charged by spare solar until full.  Then swap the two?
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billi
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« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2018, 07:48:10 PM »

It really does not matter too much, to what DOD you discharge   in that calculation   if you have a look at the attached graph  for PZS  cells ...

If one takes only 20 KWh out of my example  of a 60 kWh total sized batterie  then one has a warranty of 6000 cycles


* cycles bat.jpg (170.15 KB, 1417x1002 - viewed 223 times.)
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andrewellis
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« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2018, 08:03:55 PM »

Hi Billie, thanks for that.  It is interesting.  So it is more like a lithium battery in that respect.  But say during the day say I am producing 3kw for an hour and then its cloudy producing not much but with a reasonable load on the house.  With this repeating for the day, does the battery age as though those are multiple cycles.  You could eat through the 9000 cycles reasonably quickly.  In practise, do you find they last 15 years or so?

The other question would be if something like that arrived off a truck.  How do I move it in to a shed?  Can you disassemble cells and move them individually.  How much filling do you have to do? ie maintenance schedule.
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daveluck_uk
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« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2018, 09:20:32 PM »


Innotec have a interesting say on cycling batteries....it starts on page 4


http://www.studer-innotec.com/media/document/0/partial_ac_coupling_in_minigrids.pdf
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nowty
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« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2018, 09:28:37 PM »

The other question would be if something like that arrived off a truck.  How do I move it in to a shed?  Can you disassemble cells and move them individually.  How much filling do you have to do? ie maintenance schedule.

Mine arrived heavily boxed with timber on a pallet. Truck had tail lift and the pallet was moved to the front door by a pallet truck. I moved each cell individually which each weighs 50kg by strapping them to a hand truck. I had to place some decking boards down over the rear lawn so the hand truck did not sink into the wet lawn as I took each one round the back.

They are already filled and maintennance is topping them up with distilled water every couple of months or so, doing equalisation charges (long heavy charge) several times a year and taking specific gravity readings on the acid every now and then.

Mine are 6 years old now and are the same as when they were new.
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billi
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« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2018, 09:33:24 PM »


Innotec have a interesting say on cycling batteries....it starts on page 4


http://www.studer-innotec.com/media/document/0/partial_ac_coupling_in_minigrids.pdf

 Smiley good  write -up  that was and still is
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Nickel2
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« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2018, 09:52:56 AM »


Innotec have a interesting say on cycling batteries....it starts on page 4


http://www.studer-innotec.com/media/document/0/partial_ac_coupling_in_minigrids.pdf

Useful info now saved in battery maintenance files - thanks  Smiley
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andrewellis
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« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2018, 12:00:43 PM »

Thanks for the detailed responses.  So I have the house set up with a manual switchover to run some of the circuits from a generator. However, instead of buying a generator, it would might make sense to put some of the budget across to a battery setup.  I've been doing some reading around but am slightly lost on the lead acid battery options. 

Is there a lead acid inverter/charger that could sit on the ac side of the solar panel inverter which could do the following-

1. In the winter not drop below a certain % of battery /voltage in order to have backup load of 3-4kw on a single circuit.  This could keep the cooker/fridge/water pump going for a few days with a 60kwh setup.  I have a reasonably high base load in the winter with GSHP, electric everhot so most of the power is used from the solar.  The battery would be considered a backup in those months during inclement weather. Running only the water/fridge/lights would need a max output of 1.5kw.

2.  Automatically balance the batteries at the required interval.

3.  Have a higher normal operating charge of 4kw and output of at least 6kw.
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billi
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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2018, 02:54:29 PM »

Hi , Why are you thinking of a generator ,  you are Grid connected !

So the trick would be to me ,  is to import as little as possible from the grid and use the grid as a backup generator  and  possibly just use E7 units for recharging

The Victron Quattro   battery inverter (Sunny Island , Studer Xtender , Outback , etc )  will do all of what you want

For exampe the Victron quattro  https://www.victronenergy.com/live/system_integration:hub4_grid_parallel

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwilufmPjMreAhXFLcAKHS8xA3kQFjAAegQICBAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.victronenergy.com%2Fupload%2Fdocuments%2FWhitepaper-Self-Consumption-and-Grid-independence-with-the-Victron-Energy-Storage-Hub-EN.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0XpMYf-gJrQVezGohr1zE9

Or Studer here  http://www.studer-innotec.com/en/applications/solar-applications/self-consumption-systems/


They are pretty clever  and  a lot of options on how to programm them  to do what they should



* hub 4.jpg (167.35 KB, 1257x726 - viewed 141 times.)
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kristen
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2018, 03:01:52 PM »

Why are you thinking of a generator ,  you are Grid connected !

For me that would be because The Grid is not 100%. It might be close, but I work from home and have a couple of colleagues who come here to work, so a power outage for a few hours means we can't get any work done.

I don't feel the need for a generator because the times when I am off for more than 4 hours are rare (once a decade / less, and if it is an isolated thing, like a local fault, rather than a storm that has destroyed the infrastructure, then the Utility will bring a generator to me (and they have done in the past ...)

So a battery would do for me for the 4H max powercut, and also give me time-shift to buy Off-Peak and consume at Peak
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billi
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« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2018, 03:16:59 PM »

Ok i see   Smiley

I had bad luck with generators and i guess i spent far too much on then not only monney   wackoold whistlie

so a bigger battery and keep some hours of usage in the battery for powercuts is way way cheaper  and as well it can then stherfore absorb more during sunhours  than a tiny little one

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andrewellis
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« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2018, 03:24:20 PM »

Hi, thanks, I'll look at that.  We are grid connected but are on a private water supply.  In the big storms 4 years ago a large proportion of scotland ended up with no power for three days, which included us.  We could probably get through ok but have horses who drink a lot of water (no streams).  Your comment the other day about 60kwh of battery got me to thinking that I could offset the generator cost into batteries and also make more use of the solar pv making the setup almost zero cost.  The generator hookup point is only good for a lower level of power so I'd never be able to power the whole house.  However I have a 50 amp cable from the garage that could feed back as much from the battery system as I wanted.  

We are on economy 10 at the moment which gives quite a good rate in the cheap periods of about 10.5p per kwh and a running average of 13.1p per kwh.  The savings from shifting even looking at that make it seem like it would cover the costs of the battery/inverter.

We use about 30kwh a day in the summer on average so a 60kwh battery would help average it out the usage without draining too much at a time.  Oh dear I can feel a big spend coming on again.  My poor wife is getting fed up with me spending all our money with the long term in mind.
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billi
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« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2018, 03:45:53 PM »

..... 30 kWh per day , hmm .... i would say you could do with 5 kW more PV   acording to PVGIS tumble help  via chargecontroller ...
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andrewellis
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« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2018, 03:56:41 PM »

..... 30 kWh per day , hmm .... i would say you could do with 5 kW more PV   acording to PVGIS tumble help  via chargecontroller ...


Yes you are probably right, but funds only go so far unfortunately.  We use close to 20000 a year so the the current 5kw is a small dent in the use. I didn't realise I could get 60kwh relatively cheaply or I might have planned it all differently. I am hoping I'll be able to retrofit more in at a later date without it being too complex.  The current 5kw panels have full output but the inverter will export 3.68kw over and above the house usage.  It'll be a tricky problem to look at with the wiring setup we have.
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andrewellis
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« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2018, 04:00:55 PM »

..... 30 kWh per day , hmm .... i would say you could do with 5 kW more PV   acording to PVGIS tumble help  via chargecontroller ...


Is it as simple as running two charge controllers in parallel on the batter? One using the grid connected supply and the other using the solar panels?
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