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Author Topic: 42%of coal generators run at a loss.  (Read 2520 times)
kristen
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« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2018, 08:41:56 AM »

* I recently heard a suggestion that seemed very reasonable to me, BEV's need to be able to charge 200 miles in 15mins. That's comparable to a sensible ICE break and leg stretch. That would require 50kWh in 15mins, so 200kW charge rate. Tesla's are already at 120kW, so not far away.

I take a different view, but it requires a lifestyle change for the user.  I think Capacity is King. My BEV has 220 miles real-world range, and I leave home every morning with a "full tank"  Smiley, but about twice a month I have a > 200-mile-day. Rapid charging is nice, but increasing battery capacity (i.e. energy density up, and price down) will reduce that need. 300 miles is currently within reach, albeit expensive, 400 miles would mean very few out-of-range journeys

I'm not driving across transcontinental-America ... so most of my >200 mile days are "a bit more", and days over 300 mile are very rare  - once a year? So currently I mostly need somewhere between 1-and-100 mile topup. Tesla Supercharger is 10% every 5 minutes(*) (up to 70%), so for me adding 100 miles is 22 minutes. Seems quite long, but for many topups I need less than that and by the time I've walked to shops-area, had a pee and got a coffee the charging is done, and given I'm on a 300 mile journey the 20 minute break is no bad thing for a driver - not so much fun for a passenger whose journey just got 20 minutes longer.

Significantly faster Rapid Charging obvious "nice to have", but IMO definitely not essential for up to an extra 100 miles and no more than a couple of times a month.

Flip side, at 27K miles per annum I used to have a petrol-stop once a week ... that's about 8 hours total p.a..  And that's all Stand-and-Pump and Stand-and-Queue to pay ... whereas BEV is plug in and then do something else.  If I do Emails in that time, that I would otherwise do the moment I got home, its time neutral - better in fact, 'coz the Customer has got my answer today, not tonight Smiley

8 hours a year is equivalent to 2 x 20 minute Rapid charge stops a month  ... hence my "lifestyle change" comment. QED Smiley

If I were to drive to South of France I would have to charge 80%, 176 miles, at each stop and that would take 45 minutes and give me about 2 hours driving time. So for every 2 hours the journey got longer by 45 minutes Sad Those journeys would benefit from very fast charging ... but that is a tiny portion of all journeys made.

(*)  i.e. bigger battery adds same percentage, but more miles, per unit of time
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 08:44:58 AM by kristen » Logged
brackwell
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« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2018, 09:28:08 AM »

Kristen,
Whilst i am total BEV enthusiast i still think it is the wrong choice of tool to do the length of France ??  As against fly/train/ hire a car  or even a ICE for that one journey a yr and not have to lug around 600kg/ of batts for the rest of the yr.  All the big batts cars are very heavy and therefore inefficient often only achieving 2.5mls/kwh whereas lighter weight counterparts are 4mls/kwh or more. Just thinking horses for courses. I always envisage the ideal batt size to be that that allows 90% of journeys without even thinking about range,5% that requires careful driving and 5% that definetely requires a on route charge.

Ken
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kristen
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« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2018, 10:10:33 AM »

Whilst i am total BEV enthusiast i still think it is the wrong choice of tool to do the length of France ??

Fully agree. Dunno what the right solution is though.  I read people in USA discussing cross-country-drives and some people says "its nuts (in any car). Just fly"

We like to drive to France, e.g. to Ski, even though most people fly. We can take all our clobber with us, have none of the airport-stress / herded-like-cattle etc., and "holiday-mode" starts the moment we leave home. I have friends who have taken BEV to France and says that its absolutely fine (and of course, for early Tesla adopters who have lifetime-free-charging, the fuel is Free ...) but we think its too inconvenient, so take the ICE.

I know people who have ditched their ICE 2nd cars though, and become only-BEV.  I applaud them, but I'm not there yet.

We take BEV for all for-pleasure journeys in UK, regardless of how "difficult", but for business journeys its a toss up with convenience.  To get to Oxford I have to drive 20 minutes out of my way to get to Supercharger - so in addition to charging-time, when I could do emails, I've consumed 20 minutes of the working day ... and if I would have to charge on outbound journey, to client, I wouldn't do it (as charging time is unpredictable - e.g. if I have to "pair" [Tesla pairs A/B stalls and last person to arrive gets a lot less juice, until first person leaves] ... or if delayed because all-stalls-full).

But if I had 400 mile range, and assuming it would still charge 10% per 5 minutes (i.e. Rapid chargers upgraded accordingly) I would get twice the addition in my 45 minute stop, so adding 320 miles to my starter 400 miles, 720 miles is pretty much enough for a day I reckon, and I'm sure I could juggle to do Lunch etc. during the refuelling stop.

But, yeah, lugging around ANOTHER tonne of battery would be not-much-cop, so need improvement in energy-density too

Quote
I always envisage the ideal batt size to be that that allows 90% of journeys without even thinking about range,5% that requires careful driving and 5% that definitely requires a on route charge.

I'm onboard with that too, but not sure that 90% is good enough for a business traveller. I suppose "by then" Rapid Chargers will be abundant, and drive-out-of-way to get to one won't be necessary, and no doubt they will get faster.  Probably? battery technology is going to have to change to allow even faster rapid-charging without damage? Tesla already reduces rapid-charge rate on vehicles that have been frequently Rapid-charged - to prevent (further? ...) battery damage

I think battery-density tech may happen as fast as more-rapid-charge tech ... in which case Rapid-charge may be a rare thing - exceptional journeys only.

But even though I am in the Capacity-is-King camp, most people I know are buying smaller Teslas (ie. the 75 instead of the 100) and spending the time at Superchargers - so i am in fact wrong and of course Cash-is-King  Grin
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MeatyFool
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« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2018, 10:15:33 AM »

Something I don't see much on forums ...

The saving in fuel from owning a BEV is large enough that if you have a once or twice a year requirement that would be difficult in a BEV, you could hire a car/book a taxi for that requirement if you are at all concerned about range/recharging.

Meatyfool..
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kristen
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« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2018, 10:28:06 AM »

Renault used to have (still have?) a straightforward car-hire arrangement,so that their BEV owners could effortlessly (i assume?  whistlie !) use Rental-ICE for the difficult X% of journeys. Seemed like a good idea to me. Every time I hire a vehicle, admittedly adhoc, I find the "paperwork time" annoying.
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