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Author Topic: Any TRVs that can call the pump?  (Read 2945 times)
daveluck_uk
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« on: January 19, 2019, 12:07:33 PM »

Hello,

does anyone know of a smart TRV that can call the pump? Or at least signal a central controller of some description that will then allow me to energise the pump?

If not then I guess I'm slowly formulating my project for my Rasberry Pi.

cheers

Dave

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rogeriko
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« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2019, 12:44:28 PM »

I wouldnt want to rely on a trv to control room temperature. They are after all sitting next to a hot radiator, they do not sense the room temperature correctly. A simple wireless thermostat will do the job much better.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LCD-Wireless-Room-Thermostat-Digital-RF-Plug-Temperature-Controller-Backlight/264020116708?epid=20021183278&hash=item3d78d344e4:g:n5MAAOSwzZNb3DKj:rk:15:pf:0

Something like this, only 15 and just plug your pump into the socket.
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daveluck_uk
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« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2019, 01:50:19 PM »

Cheers Rogeriko,

but I'm looking for something different ( well, I think I am )

The way my system works at the moment is that once the tank water temp reaches x it cools down via hysteresis function until y. I have normal TRVs now and obviously these restrict the flow once the room is up to temp.

I have a couple of always on rads to ensure circulation and these are located in the coldest, rarely used rooms. These are also used to dump heat in case of emergencies...they are quite large. I have a cylinder stat wired direct to the pump.

Whats happens now is that the pump comes on, circulates the water to, the rads shut down as the room heats up. Eventually all the TRVs are closed and water continues to circulate via the open radiators until the water is cooled down and pump switches off.

What I'm hoping to achieve is that I can stop that final cooling down via triggering the pump from any number of TRVs. So all rooms hot, turn off pump, one room get cold again turn on pump until that room is warm again.

I know I'll still be pumping water around the 2 circulating radiators...but hopefully less heat will be "wasted" in normal operation.

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Countrypaul
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« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2019, 02:06:27 PM »

Why try and use a TRV given what you want to do?

 Couldn't you use a two port valve linked to a wireless thermostat switch like Roger suggests, that would give you the option to open the 2 port valve and turn on the pump when the temperature drops below X and off when it reaches Y.  I have no idea what your layout is and where the valves could be located, but what you are trying to achieve seems very similar to what a wiring centre for an UFH system does only in that case it is normal to have a the heat output loops on separate feeds from a manifold.
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daveluck_uk
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« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2019, 02:44:13 PM »

Paul,

The problem is I've got too much time on my hands...

yes, ideally when I designed the system I would of had each room on its own manifold / sub circuit. But my ignorance at the beginning and the fact that what I want to do has evolved over the years means that i have to work with what I've got ( or not got ).

and yes I could use a 2 port valve and a wireless stat for each room, however ceilings are up and floors are laid...I don't have a hope in hell of convincing the wife that I going to redo some of that just so I can control the heat in each room more effectively and efficiently.

I want to try and use a TRV based solution because

1. No additional plumbing.

2. Cost ( not sure about that ), ease of access for maintenance, ease of access for installing

3. While they may not be the perfect solution they do what I want which is to control the temperature in each room by restricting the flow of water through the rads.

I've tried looking at some of the propriety systems but no luck. Even though they now come with matching TRVs I can't tell if its the TRVs that do the controlling and the room type thermostat acts a wireless wiring center controlling the pump. ie many feeds in(tvrs)   to one feed out (pump/s) or if it is just like a normal stat its cold turn on the pump.

I'll keep digging.





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Countrypaul
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« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2019, 03:09:32 PM »

Dave,

I know how you feel about having the ceilings and floors done and then wanting to change things. I managed to get the UFH heating laid and all the components for the wiring centre ready before the plastering of the walls and ceilings only to discover no one put any wiring in for the room thermostats, As a result have to change from wired ones (already on site) to wireless ones as  even suggesting messing with the decor to put more wires in was likely to cause too many "discussions" with the wife.

Does this help you, it looks somewhat along the lines of what you need, though I don't quite know how it would all fit together:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B009DK5KNA/ref=asc_df_B009DK5KNA58116268/?tag=googshopuk-21&creative=22146&creativeASIN=B009DK5KNA&linkCode=df0&hvadid=255774212797&hvpos=1o8&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16419118599748849377&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006822&hvtargid=pla-423025796095
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daveluck_uk
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« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2019, 03:57:04 PM »

Nice one!!

I think this does it! I'll go and download the manuals!

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daveluck_uk
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« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2019, 04:33:32 PM »

hmmmmm...so if I've understood this right it definateley does what I want it to do. Each TRV becomes a zone.

But I cant find anything that shows how the system connects to either a. a boiler or b. a pump.  It says that the trvs connect to the "wireless thermostat" but it seems completely pointless if it is a central thermostat as whats the point in fitting individual TRV if its all going to be over ridden by the wireless stat? It must be a central transmitter of some sort and I cant find how that then connects to the pump. There must be a hard wired receiver somewhere...dropped a note to Honeywell.

My god! its bone achingly expensive. Over a 1k to control 11 rads!

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Countrypaul
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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2019, 06:33:02 PM »

I only looked at the one item as I happened to notice it appeared to do what you were talking about, I didn't look at how it all connects together, but at 1K+ there must be some alternatives out there somewhere surely?

I notice Salus do a wireless relay and also thermostats etc. No idea if they are any less expensive or how reliable they are though.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 07:06:13 PM by Countrypaul » Logged
RIT
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« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2019, 12:28:33 AM »

hmmmmm...so if I've understood this right it definateley does what I want it to do. Each TRV becomes a zone.

But I cant find anything that shows how the system connects to either a. a boiler or b. a pump.  It says that the trvs connect to the "wireless thermostat" but it seems completely pointless if it is a central thermostat as whats the point in fitting individual TRV if its all going to be over ridden by the wireless stat? It must be a central transmitter of some sort and I cant find how that then connects to the pump. There must be a hard wired receiver somewhere...dropped a note to Honeywell.

My god! its bone achingly expensive. Over a 1k to control 11 rads!


You are in the realm of a do it yourself project with some type of central control unit running an application of your own. Current solutions are being based around things like Amazon Alexa, while past solutions were based on the the Z-Wave, zigbee or X10 standards with a central control unit. The gas boiler/pump becomes just a system that is turned on and off by the central control unit which replaces the common timer switch with a remote control switch.

Personally every time I have costed up a solution it has worked out more than running my current gas boiler configuration for a good few years.

If you want to get a feel for what options are possible you may want to look around the following site.

   https: //www.zipato.com/how-it-works/overview

They have a very advanced central control unit (at a high cost) that can connect to many different monitoring and control units with a programming interface. As you get to understand all the different possible options you find that the boiler/pump control is the simplest aspect of the solution as its just an on/off relay.


In many ways, advance automation of the TRVs and heat source is somewhat redundant if the heat source is able to monitor the return temperature, once all the tvrs have restricted the flow of hot water to the radiators the heat source should shut down due to the high return temperature without the need of any advance tech. The justification of automation is more about having dynamic tvr setting over the day, but even this can be handled with many modern tvrs as they can support a range of setting based on at least the time of day.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 12:53:51 AM by RIT » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2019, 08:36:45 AM »

What's the make and model of the existing boiler?
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daveluck_uk
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« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2019, 03:36:43 PM »

What's the make and model of the existing boiler?

TT, there is no boiler. I'm running wbs. I just want to turn the pump on and off.
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Westie
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2019, 07:48:56 PM »

On the Honeywell EVOHome and Drayton Wiser systems the TRVs do call for heat, as mentioned above each TRVs in these systems is effectively a zone with a roomstat.

Can't speak for other systems but I can't see any other way it could work.



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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2019, 10:33:27 AM »

Folks,

I've been idly looking at this myself as the cost of the some of the 'fully automated' systems are just ridiculous and will never pay for themselves.

My current thoughts are based on using a Raspberry Pi to monitor the temperature in each room/zone (this one has been mentioned on the forum before and is a good basis for development)

https://www.instructables.com/id/Raspberry-Pi-Home-Heating-Controller/

and to then to remove the TRV head and use a thermal actuator to open up the existing valve 

https://www.heatingcontrolsonline.co.uk/multifit-thermal-actuator-240v-p-396.html

OK, it has a potential delay of up to 2 minutes before the valve is fully open but if I use the 4 wire version then the pump can be held off until the valve is ready and at 22 per valve that's way cheaper than a 'proper' home automation system.......
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daveluck_uk
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« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2019, 01:05:34 PM »

Folks,

I've been idly looking at this myself as the cost of the some of the 'fully automated' systems are just ridiculous and will never pay for themselves.

My current thoughts are based on using a Raspberry Pi to monitor the temperature in each room/zone (this one has been mentioned on the forum before and is a good basis for development)

https://www.instructables.com/id/Raspberry-Pi-Home-Heating-Controller/

and to then to remove the TRV head and use a thermal actuator to open up the existing valve 

https://www.heatingcontrolsonline.co.uk/multifit-thermal-actuator-240v-p-396.html

OK, it has a potential delay of up to 2 minutes before the valve is fully open but if I use the 4 wire version then the pump can be held off until the valve is ready and at 22 per valve that's way cheaper than a 'proper' home automation system.......


That's interesting...excuse my complete ignorance but how does the actuator push the plunger on the TRV? I've never come across these before.
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