navitron
 
Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Anyone wishing to register as a new member on the forum is strongly recommended to use a "proper" email address - following recent spam/hack attempts on the forum, all security is set to "high", and "disposable" email addresses like Gmail, Yahoo and Hotmail tend to be viewed with suspicion, and the application rejected if there is any doubt whatsoever
 
Recent Articles: Navitron Partners With Solax to Help Create A More Sustainable Future | Navitron Calls for Increased Carbon Footprint Reduction In Light of Earth Overshoot Day | A plea from The David School - Issue 18
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 [8]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Food vs Fuel?  (Read 43722 times)
billi
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8944



WWW
« Reply #105 on: April 24, 2008, 06:42:16 PM »

Hello

sure..... its a whole lot of food we consume , but were are our excrement's going to  Huh

some figures say that 1/3 of  the world demand of fertiliser could be made out of the human "shite", after it was processed to biogass

cheers billi

Logged

1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
byways
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 270


« Reply #106 on: April 24, 2008, 11:29:19 PM »


BYways - the fact that there are other forms of waste does not detract from the underlying problem with biofuels which is that they are a damn quick way of starving one third of this planets population.

Sure - food waste is a major issue. Perhaps one benefit of rising prices is that we use food more carefully.

Have I touched on a raw nerve Wink - a twinge of conscience perhaps as you pour another 20 litres of pura into the tank???



I do not buy Pura or have any wish to. I do not promote SVO, and of the WVO I have collected this week, 50% had already been placed in the waste bin illegally, and was recovered by the doner for me!  I would just like to see the facts stated, rather than opinions stated as "fact".

However, renewable fuels can be grown for transport, in some places ie Diesel Trees for example.

Providing it does not detract from food production.  EU Scientist considered it did not when they set the 10% RTFO figure, and our Gov's scientists when they set the 5% limit.  You may be better qualified than they, but it would be illuminating to hear. They are reviewing it, as they should be. There is a balance, to be determined by facts, not bigotry.

To get into context your rant about SVO though, very little comparatively is used for fuel. (A minute fraction of 1%) Most is WVO, and is nearer 2.5% now. Our total consumption is 2% of Global consumption.  So those that do use SVO, to reduce pollution AND reduce their fiscal exposure, with provisions specifically provided by HMRC, are not responsible for basmati rice going up 60%.


You also mentioned SUVs in several posts, and you probably mean 4x4s but why not the other top polluting cars  "I have repeatedly said in the House that nine of the top 10 most polluting vehicles sold in the United Kingdom are not 4x4s, but cars such as Bentleys, Maseratis......" Rob Marris MP.   Your arguments seem skewed to your own narrow views.

Regards.

 
Logged
NickW
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1780


« Reply #107 on: April 25, 2008, 04:33:12 PM »


BYways - the fact that there are other forms of waste does not detract from the underlying problem with biofuels which is that they are a damn quick way of starving one third of this planets population.

Sure - food waste is a major issue. Perhaps one benefit of rising prices is that we use food more carefully.

Have I touched on a raw nerve Wink - a twinge of conscience perhaps as you pour another 20 litres of pura into the tank???



I do not buy Pura or have any wish to. I do not promote SVO, and of the WVO I have collected this week, 50% had already been placed in the waste bin illegally, and was recovered by the doner for me!  I would just like to see the facts stated, rather than opinions stated as "fact".

However, renewable fuels can be grown for transport, in some places ie Diesel Trees for example.

Providing it does not detract from food production.  EU Scientist considered it did not when they set the 10% RTFO figure, and our Gov's scientists when they set the 5% limit.  You may be better qualified than they, but it would be illuminating to hear. They are reviewing it, as they should be. There is a balance, to be determined by facts, not bigotry.

To get into context your rant about SVO though, very little comparatively is used for fuel. (A minute fraction of 1%) Most is WVO, and is nearer 2.5% now. Our total consumption is 2% of Global consumption.  So those that do use SVO, to reduce pollution AND reduce their fiscal exposure, with provisions specifically provided by HMRC, are not responsible for basmati rice going up 60%.


You also mentioned SUVs in several posts, and you probably mean 4x4s but why not the other top polluting cars  "I have repeatedly said in the House that nine of the top 10 most polluting vehicles sold in the United Kingdom are not 4x4s, but cars such as Bentleys, Maseratis......" Rob Marris MP.   Your arguments seem skewed to your own narrow views.

Regards.

 


Byways

Why are you getting in such a tizz - I don't have a problem with using WVO for fuel.

As for my references to SUV's /4X4 well yes I appreciate there are other vehicles that consume large amounts of fuel per passenger mile. To that end any fuel taxes IMO should be directed to the fuel consumption no matter what the vehicle type.

Diesel trees - are these not a tropical plant???

As for fuel crops: well unless we are utilising unused / underemployed land opportunity cost is a major consideration. A good example would be making better use of residential land - gardens, fringe land - motorway embankments, and perhaps very poor soils that support little else other than extensive grazing. Using fertile arable land in contrast has major opportunity costs. I have just got the train back from London and it seems virtually every field on route is planted out with OSR. In contrast 5 years ago the majority would be planted out with cereals, sugar beet and potatoes.   Hmmmmm - where will food prices be???

C'mon - bigotry - Im sure theres allot I could be accused of but bigotry. I have expressed an opinion that using food grade oils for fuel at a time when food prices are rising rapidly has morality issues. People are free to disagree - thats their right. This is a forum - a place to debate - offer opinion within defined set of rules.

I think you need to look up the meaning of 'rant'


As for the EU / DEFRA reports they are somewhat dated - written when agricultural prices were lower, set aside the order of the day, food self sufficiency didnt matter because our miracle economy (ponzi - perpetual house price inflation - mortgage equity release driven) would facilitate us importing all our food wackoold

Times are a changing......
Logged

Ask Questions, look for evidence, think for yourself

Gold is the currency of Kings, Silver the Currency of Gentlemen. Barter is the Currency of Peasants, whilst DEBT is the currency of SLAVES
NickW
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1780


« Reply #108 on: April 25, 2008, 04:39:24 PM »

Hello

sure..... its a whole lot of food we consume , but were are our excrement's going to  Huh

some figures say that 1/3 of  the world demand of fertiliser could be made out of the human "shoobie", after it was processed to biogass

cheers billi



Hi Billi

Since about 1998 the disposal of sewage sludge at sea has been banned. I dont know about the rest of europe but in the Uk most of it already ends up on land. I know Anglian Water have contract muck spreaders who spread on farmers fields virtually for free. Much of that sludge is anaerobically digested with the gas used to generate power. Indeed I visitred Bury Sewage works nr Manchester in 1993. Their sludge went through an AD process with the gas being burnt in 4 250KW ICE to produce electricity. The heat was used to speed up the digesters.

So to that end we are already recycling much of the nutrient content of our excrement!

Regards

Nick
Logged

Ask Questions, look for evidence, think for yourself

Gold is the currency of Kings, Silver the Currency of Gentlemen. Barter is the Currency of Peasants, whilst DEBT is the currency of SLAVES
billi
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8944



WWW
« Reply #109 on: April 25, 2008, 06:50:19 PM »

Nick

here (our village)  it is still be let out into the sea    Huh

There are concepts for housing schemes including the toilets , Compost, Garden waste , lawn cuttings to be

digested by small biogas reactors for CHP options

Great idea i think so no need to carry it far away

billi
« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 04:14:58 AM by billi » Logged

1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
NickW
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1780


« Reply #110 on: April 25, 2008, 09:01:28 PM »

Nick

here (our village)  it is still be let out into the sea    Huh

There are concepts for housing schemes including the toilets , Compost, Garden waste , lawn cuttings to be

digested by small biogas reactors for CHP options

Great idea i think so no need to carry the like mine to far od the place

billi

Hi Billi

When I went to the Bury sewage works they said that to be economic the sewage works needed to be serving at least 500,000 people.

Things may have changed. I cant imagine one households poo producing any significant amounts of biogas. Better to conc in a small sewage works.

Nick
Logged

Ask Questions, look for evidence, think for yourself

Gold is the currency of Kings, Silver the Currency of Gentlemen. Barter is the Currency of Peasants, whilst DEBT is the currency of SLAVES
KenB
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2694


Energy Self Enlightenment


WWW
« Reply #111 on: May 08, 2008, 05:42:04 PM »

List,

In the early 1830's, the UK was faced with a dilemma of replacing their horse drawn transport with the new fangled, coal or coke burning, steam carriages.

The 2 million draught horses were literally competing with the 16 million human population for food - Britain had reached the limits of capacity for food production - does this  sound a little familiar?  Peak Oats  Grin

It was argued that the steam carriage could replace a multitude of horses and thus free up agricultural land for vital human food crops.

Not only this, but mechanised road transport would lead to faster transportation and more efficient distribution of foodstuffs to the cities where an every growing human population needed an ever increasing quantity of affordable food.

The Liverpool to Manchester railway had opened in 1830 and was performing well, but there was a tremendous resistance to steam powered road transport. A House of Commons Select Committee was set up to debate the pros & cons.

Punitive tolls of 2 per steam carriage, compare to 6 shillings per horse carriage meant that the early steam carriages had a major problem running a viable business.

The outcome of the debate changed the course of history, the steam carriage was effectively quashed in the early 1830s and there was no significant development of self propelled road vehicles for the next 60 years. The horse remained the preferred choice for short distance haulage, whilst railways provide cost effective travel and freight over longer distances.

Steam Traction was later developed for agricultural use, starting around 1860 with the development of traction engines - notably Aveling in Kent

http://www.ranger.demon.co.uk/aveling/aveling.htm

Steam carriages were capable of ten to twelve miles per hour, compared to the 8  or 9 mph of a stage coach. A little known fact was that horses used for stage coach duty were generally knackered after 3 years service.

The UK population was around 16 million in 1830, and required 2 million horses for haulage and transport purposes.  These horses consumed 8 times the food resources of the average working man and 8.1 million acres of agricultural land was dedicated to growing fodder (oats etc) for horses.

Fortunately Google Books has scanned an 1832 publication, describing the history and background of the steam carriage, and it can be found here:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WUcOAAAAYAAJ

Why is this important?  We need to learn from the lessons and mistakes of the pre-oil age if we are to avoid making the same mistakes again. Britain had reached a food capacity limit in 1830 of 16 million people and effectively another 16 million mouths to feed in the shape of horses.

With diminishing petroleum reserves, we need to find alternative means of conveying people and goods around the country with more efficient use of fossil fuels.   

Fact-worthy Note - 1 kilo of firewood can be used to propel a 1 tonne Transit van about 2km.

http://members.tripod.com/~highforest/woodgas/woodfired.html



Ken


« Last Edit: May 08, 2008, 05:48:43 PM by KenB » Logged
Ted
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3907



« Reply #112 on: May 08, 2008, 08:48:43 PM »

... generally knackered after 3 years service.

And, of course, knackered is exactly the right word for it.

I wonder what the food imports were to the UK in 1830?  There must have been some despite the Corn Laws.
Logged

Volunteer moderator
NickW
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1780


« Reply #113 on: May 09, 2008, 01:11:51 PM »

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/afp/20080509/tsc-inflation-poverty-food-energy-biofue-e123fef.html

More damning evidence for biofraud.

25% of the US (yes - 25%) diverting into biofuels to reduce oil consumption by 1% tumble
Logged

Ask Questions, look for evidence, think for yourself

Gold is the currency of Kings, Silver the Currency of Gentlemen. Barter is the Currency of Peasants, whilst DEBT is the currency of SLAVES
KenB
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2694


Energy Self Enlightenment


WWW
« Reply #114 on: May 09, 2008, 01:33:26 PM »

NickW, List

Clearly the biofuel policies are flawed.

Here's a list of how much GDP activity a ton of oil produced for several countries. It is in fact, a measure of the "energy efficiency" of a country

Saudi Arabia: $3,578
Canada: $9,816
Russia: $10,938
Mexico: $11,558
USA: $12,430
Japan: $15,671
Sweden: $17,365
Italy: $18,273
Norway: $18,395
France: $18,623
Germany: $18,826
Denmark: $18,907
Ireland: $19,164
Switzerland: $20,491
UK: $22,596
China: $23,052
India: $28,562

The USA clearly has a long way to go to reduce its energy consumption by improvements in efficiency.  It is not surprising that countries such as China and India are racing ahead.

Oil reached a new high today, of over $125 per barrel, almost exactly double it's price in May last year

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/fds/hi/business/market_data/commodities/28698/twelve_month.stm

A little energy efficiency goes along way.


Ken



Logged
NickW
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1780


« Reply #115 on: May 09, 2008, 02:10:41 PM »

Ken

Interesting stuff. The Uk looks pretty good or is that just indicative of the fact we have offshored virtually all our manufacturing capacity?

Looks like Saudis have allot of fat to trim - if they were more efficient in their use this would free up more oil for the export market. Classic example of waste locally where the product is abundant. The Al-Saud families great grand children will thank their forefathers (today) for sending them back to camel riding around 2050 wackoold.

Regards

Nick
Logged

Ask Questions, look for evidence, think for yourself

Gold is the currency of Kings, Silver the Currency of Gentlemen. Barter is the Currency of Peasants, whilst DEBT is the currency of SLAVES
billi
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8944



WWW
« Reply #116 on: May 20, 2008, 10:22:16 PM »

Quote
As for fuel crops: well unless we are utilising unused / underemployed land opportunity cost is a major consideration. A good example would be making better use of residential land - gardens, fringe land - motorway embankments, and perhaps very poor soils that support little else other than extensive grazing. Using fertile arable land in contrast has major opportunity costs. I have just got the train back from London and it seems virtually every field on route is planted out with OSR. In contrast 5 years ago the majority would be planted out with cereals, sugar beet and potatoes.   Hmmmmm - where will food prices be???


.... growing biofuel does produce food for animals as well  Roll Eyes and a lot .... so that should be calculated into this debate

As well as most european nations were criticised for their overproduction that caused cheep foodprices worldwide in the last decades

and outperformed competidors .... so a bid resposible for unsubstainable developments in second and third world countries....

But sure like  said before

this statement i read and translated with google ( give google a bit bioethanol to work better  Grin)

If a farmer growing one hectare rape, he can each year about 16,000 kilowatt hours of energy harvest. If he is on the same surface a photovoltaic system built, it can be 400,000 kWh of solar electricity. If he is on his arable installed a wind turbine, he reaps six million KWh of wind power

Nice to see happy cows grasing under windturbines and PV instalations and produce biogas and food (waste food in the eye of vegeterians)

Billi
Logged

1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
NickW
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1780


« Reply #117 on: May 21, 2008, 12:56:39 AM »

16,000 kwh is the energy harvest - is this net or gross?  I suspect its gross so what are the inputs to produce that 16,000kwh? - In other words the energy return on energy invested.

As for wind turbines - yes I would agree they take up very little land space relative to their power output. In contrast PV would shadow allot of land. Ok some grasses will grow in shadow but the biological output will be nowhere near as good as when in direct sunlight. Again with wind and solar we have considerable initial power inputs before we get too excited about power outputs!
Logged

Ask Questions, look for evidence, think for yourself

Gold is the currency of Kings, Silver the Currency of Gentlemen. Barter is the Currency of Peasants, whilst DEBT is the currency of SLAVES
billi
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8944



WWW
« Reply #118 on: May 22, 2008, 10:34:54 PM »

Shade is important and good  Grin  much more needed nowerdays and good plants grow there as well...

I didnot say nightshade  garden


billi

Logged

1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 [8]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums
Simple Audio Video Embedder
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!