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Author Topic: Teslas >20% more efficient than iPace or eTron  (Read 2089 times)
M
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« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2019, 07:53:09 AM »

I'm fine with all that - I just get grumpy when Tesla are quoted due to the vast numbers of Teslavangelists out there spewing cult-like rubbish. Remember the stone age didn't end because we ran out of stone, but because we discovered something better - and the oil age will be the same. In this case it's mostly batteries, largely driven by the improvements coming out of smart phone and laptop development. Throw in power electronics (Si, SiC, GaN, etc.) allowing the use of something other than brushed DC motors and you've got all the ingredients.

Cheers, and I understand where you are coming from, but it's hard to discuss BEV's and recent progress without mentioning Tesla, and when you do mention Tesla, then your whole post can be dismissed simply by a n other calling you a Fanboi.

The tech is being 'driven' forward faster than it otherwise would be by Tesla, but most important is the profitability side. On another forum when I mentioned Tesla were close to profitability (discussion within 2018 Q3, so technically they already were, we just didn't know it), another poster pointed out that Renault were ahead of them, quoting how the Zoe was now profitable against, and wait for it ...... variable costs! There then followed a discussion as another poster tried to explain how that wasn't 'profitable'.

So it's easy to get annoyed at constant talk about Tesla, but that'll die down I think over the next 5yrs as other companies build more BEV's and reach full profitability on them. I completely acknowledge that Tesla won't solve this problem, they will only be part of the solution, but they deserve recognition for selling more BEV's in 2018 than any other company in the world, and for driving change faster than it otherwise would have happened. In the US, the percentage of EV (not just BEV) sales in 2018 was approx double that of 2017, and the entire difference was down simply to the sales of the TM3 - the impact cannot be understated. But I admit that I want more companies to achieve what they have, so that the transition to BEV's can accelerate.
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« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2019, 02:48:17 PM »

Hi Mart,

I do get the point, only too well I'm afraid. I get it that we are talking about decarbonising the transport sector, although we're not really are we, what about air travel, shipping and  trains? I get it that we are talking about hugely impressive feats of technology and engineering, that could replace an awfull lot of fossil fuel energy. I get it that we have indeed rolled out quite a lot of this pretty fast, certainly over the last ten years or so.

I also get it that thirty years ago when I was very much more involved in these campaigns that it was crucial that we did not allow the CO2 content to break the 350ppm mark. I also get it that we have talked about how important all this decarbonisation is, and yet we have actually achieved very little, apart from lots of talking.

Until we get a pretty widespread political agreement to put in place a holistic and practical scheme to decarbonise and forget the dogma of trying to force it all into some "market" place all we are going to get is the piecemeal approach that we have at the moment. Most companies come at this with a view to making money, because they have to. Most punters come at this with the view to saving money, these opposing views kind of strangle the market which leaves us with our politicians to try and sell us the idea that there is a better way to put in place a green revolution. I ain't holding my breath for that one though. Politics and the economy is badly broken and until that is mended I think we are ruddeless in this respect. That's where the battle is, not with the technology or which technology but selling the idea that we actually need to get on with ALL of them.

Desp

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« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2019, 04:38:05 PM »

Hi Mart,

I do get the point, only too well I'm afraid. I get it that we are talking about decarbonising the transport sector, although we're not really are we, what about air travel, shipping and  trains? I get it that we are talking about hugely impressive feats of technology and engineering, that could replace an awfull lot of fossil fuel energy. I get it that we have indeed rolled out quite a lot of this pretty fast, certainly over the last ten years or so.

I also get it that thirty years ago when I was very much more involved in these campaigns that it was crucial that we did not allow the CO2 content to break the 350ppm mark. I also get it that we have talked about how important all this decarbonisation is, and yet we have actually achieved very little, apart from lots of talking.

Until we get a pretty widespread political agreement to put in place a holistic and practical scheme to decarbonise and forget the dogma of trying to force it all into some "market" place all we are going to get is the piecemeal approach that we have at the moment. Most companies come at this with a view to making money, because they have to. Most punters come at this with the view to saving money, these opposing views kind of strangle the market which leaves us with our politicians to try and sell us the idea that there is a better way to put in place a green revolution. I ain't holding my breath for that one though. Politics and the economy is badly broken and until that is mended I think we are ruddeless in this respect. That's where the battle is, not with the technology or which technology but selling the idea that we actually need to get on with ALL of them.

Desp

So, your issue is that companies want to make money, and customers want to save money, so 'going low carbon' is therefore a problem of competing aims.

Well, here's the good news - Tesla have just proven that BEV's, that people want, at a price that is affordable*, and people are willing to pay, and will save money, are now possible whilst the company makes a profit selling them too.

So if you'd please, please, please read what I've posted, you might spot the very thing you want, and we all need, is exactly what I'm going on and on and on about. Tesla have taken BEV's from being a potential solution to transport emissions, to a viable solution with performance and range that is acceptable, and now have crossed the finishing line with economically viable mass market BEV's. I genuinely don't understand what it is about this news that you aren't happy about, nor why you want to throw out negatives like 'air transport, shipping and trains' ............... I'm not the problem mate, I'm simply trying to point to positives and enjoy a victory. I appreciate it's not THE victory, but throwing negativity and other issues/problems at me is so disappointing.

I'm sorry that you feel the way you do, but I stand firm that economically viable and popular BEV's is a massive victory, and deserving of note. I don't see any way whatsoever that its bad news, I just wish I hadn't yet again tried to bring my enthusiasm to this forum. You complain that people have done too much talking and taken too little action, but when I pop my head above the parapet and point to actual progress, all you want to do is talk (negatively) at me. Pot meet kettle.

I give up .................. BEV's are carp, we should move to coal powered traction engines instead.  I'm off to suck a diesel exhaust, then kick a penguin. Goodbye.   surrender

*I appreciate that BEV's are still expensive, especially Tesla's, but they have a lower TCO than comparable ICE's (whilst PHEV's have a higher TCO than ICE's). So, big picture, BEV's are now cheaper, and getting cheaper still. They are also lower CO2 and will continue to get lower across their lifetime.
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« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2019, 08:44:16 AM »

Shock for the Tesla "fanboi"s. Sunday Times yesterday says that for the model 3 "shipping and extra taxes will make them roughly 25% more expensive than their US equivalents costing close to £50,000. The top rated Performance model will have a price tag nearer £60,000....." and goes on to point out the the Kia e-Niro is £32995 with a range of 280 miles. The Leaf 62 kWh is expected to come in well below this Tesla price and is assembled in the UK. It seems the new Leaf has continued with an improved version of it's existing battery technology so the battery may be UK manufactured too. The Leaf was top selling european electric car last year.
The future is certainly bright for electric cars, not just Tesla.

Mind you, having re-read the Times article it says the model 3 basic price of $35,000 is £26,500 and adding 25% gives £33,125 so I have no idea how they justify "close to £50,000. Never believe anything you read in the paper? Huh
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« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2019, 08:46:00 AM »

Epic whatabouterry there Iím afraid Desp and not really sure what your wanting to happen? Yes air and sea transport is a problem but that doesnít mean you canít try and solve passenger (and light goods/ road haulage) transport now while the harder stuff takes longer?  Yes there is too much gas and coal used globally for power but that doesnít mean we canít celebrate the rapidly accelerating development and deployment of grid-scale wind and solar which is having a huge positive impact on emissions, air quality and cost of power.

 BEVs in China are already approaching double digit percentages of new car sales. Sales of ICE powered vehicles are falling globally vs rapid growth of BEVs globally. People want to buy BEVs now as theyíre demonstrably better vehicles, and ICE manufacturers have realised (thanks to Tesla) that there isnboth a market for them and money to be made.   Weíre at the inflection point for BEVs to become mainstream with all the manifest benefits that has to our air quality and, yes, carbon emissions.  So why, particularly on a renewables forum, does this not get received positively?
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« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2019, 10:36:01 AM »

Desp  and I are usually on the same page. We build you see. We actually construct things with our hands and while the rest of the world is writing about it we are getting down and dirty doing it.  So we are naturally  suspicious of something that seems to make everybody clap their hands and hug each other. We are not the huggy kind and yet we want to believe but we would not fall for any Jim Jones preaching and head off to Joneville for the final drink. Look upon us as a safety brake. We want to be sure.
My own experience with electric cars was dismal. I bought one some years ago without batteries and put 6 100amp hour yousa bats in it only to discovet it could not carry the batteries never mind me. It was a tale of the blind leading the deaf.. I have got over it now and moved on.
I would love these electric battery cars to shine bright and for everyone to embrace them. Like Solar pv. Hydro and wind power .they are the future .
Desp and I are only trying to  keep you all on the right track .
       Biff
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« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2019, 02:56:07 PM »

Desp  and I are usually on the same page. We build you see. We actually construct things with our hands and while the rest of the world is writing about it we are getting down and dirty doing it.  So we are naturally  suspicious of something that seems to make everybody clap their hands and hug each other. We are not the huggy kind and yet we want to believe but we would not fall for any Jim Jones preaching and head off to Joneville for the final drink. Look upon us as a safety brake. We want to be sure.
My own experience with electric cars was dismal. I bought one some years ago without batteries and put 6 100amp hour yousa bats in it only to discovet it could not carry the batteries never mind me. It was a tale of the blind leading the deaf.. I have got over it now and moved on.
I would love these electric battery cars to shine bright and for everyone to embrace them. Like Solar pv. Hydro and wind power .they are the future .
Desp and I are only trying to  keep you all on the right track .
       Biff


Well, Dan persuaded me to come back for one last look, and I simply give up - you and Desp don't want to get excited until IT actually arrives, and Desp specifically pointed out that company aims (profits) and customer aims (costs/savings) are often incompatible.

Now, just to repeat, for I suspect the 4th or 5th time, exactly what it is that I'm suggesting we celebrate, it's the arrival of profitable mass market BEV's (the company aim), at affordable* and acceptable customer prices (the customer aim).

*Please no pedantry on the high costs of these Tesla BEV's, they have lower TCO's than comparable vehicles, and actually beat cheaper mass market ICE's in the US. So they are 'affordable' and prices will fall further, and lower priced, lower spec'd models will also arrive.

So, when I suggest we celebrate this, I get told .... ppm's ..... aircraft ..... safety brakes till we're sure. Well I am sure. I've celebrated the idea of BEV's, I've celebrated the arrival of BEV's that can do the job (acceptable vehicles, with decent range), and now I'm celebrating profitable & affordable BEV's, the final step that now leads to decarbonising the transport sector (road based).

Just to repeat and clarify, what you want to see, is what has arrived, but celebration of that arrival is criticised. Criticism is justified on the basis that we need to wait till it's arrived!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Repeated explanations and clarifications of what has arrived are simply buried under negativity and whataboutery.

I appreciate that you don't realise this, so there is no malicious intent, but you are not being suspicious, you are in denial, and thereby denying a positive. If we can't celebrate a win, then we will forever feel like losers, and that's just depressing.
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« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2019, 03:09:05 PM »

I'm with M on this, we are at the point with BEVs that we were with wind turbines and solar panels not so long back. We shouldn't need to wait until half the country has changed to using BEV's rather than ICEs before we celebrate the major impact this is having on the whole car market. Just look at the Geneva motor show and the impact on that this year to see how much is now being invested and how all the car companies are looking to BEVs as a large part (if not entire part) of their future.
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biff
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« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2019, 03:09:45 PM »

 hysteria.
     Cheer up M . Im only in the door and trying to  keep the peace. fingers crossed!
Desp was on his own and did not lave a leg to stand on. So I could not let a Brudder builder sink like that..I am also reading a book on diplomacy and trying to interact with both parties. It is not easy and I can see my chances of being moderator of the year going up in smoke.  (Well green smoke that is )
     Biff
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« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2019, 08:55:16 PM »

Fair enough chaps, good luck Grin

Desp
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« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2019, 10:10:16 PM »

In a previous life, I was embroiled in competitive conversations and robust arguments with various folk of our wonderful community. I sat back until the dust settled, remembering that if all of us agreed every single point raised in the forum, we would all sit there like a smarmy bunch of coconuts patting each other on the back.
We are all different however, so the value of each and every opinion is acknowledged and respected, even if it is not agreed upon.
Moving swiftly on...
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« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2019, 11:02:25 PM »

Mart.
   I do apologise. My sense of humor is somewhat twisted and I have accidentally behaved like a gob. So I will strive to do better in future..
                    Biff
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« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2019, 10:44:07 AM »

Back on topic - the excellent Youtuber Bjorn has done his own comparison test between the X, iPace and eTron out in Norway. Same conditions, same tyres, same temperature setting on the air-con...

youtube.com/watch?v=blqZ_rZ7WFI

Watch and enjoy.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 10:48:18 AM by dan_b » Logged

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« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2019, 02:52:53 PM »

Common sense. The iPace is lighter and does better at low speeds, The Tesla is more streamlined and does better at high speeds. The eTron is as heavy as the Tesla and not very streamlined and less good all the time.
Sadly, I can relate to the Norwegian idea of fun.
Don
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