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Author Topic: Thoughts on a second hand EV  (Read 1172 times)
Bodidly
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« on: May 11, 2019, 07:29:06 AM »

So we are looking to change our car and wondering if it's time to go for an EV. Average 8000 miles a year with the majority of it being less than 10mile round trips. A few 25 mile round trips and the occasional trips to the inlaws which is 130 miles relatively hilly miles. Need space for 2 people, luggage and dog. And Liz recons 100hp as she likes a bit of nip. What are the considerations when looking at SH EVs?

Thanks
Beau
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oliver90owner
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« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2019, 07:47:49 AM »

It appears to be a sellerís market at the moment.  Too few new vehicles available and too many wanting them!  That means relatively few vehicles coming up for second person ownership.

Are you wanting views on which models to look for, or general tips/warnings of what not to buy?

PLP cars will likely not have had the battery looked after, as the first owner likely decided to hand the vehicle back when the lease ended.  Short range leads to charging to 100%, discharging to a low state of charge and repeated fast charging.  These all stress the battery, so the state of health of the battery is paramount when considering any second hand electric car.
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Bodidly
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« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2019, 08:40:19 AM »



Are you wanting views on which models to look for, or general tips/warnings of what not to buy?



Both. I know diddly squat about them really and also get lost with all the acronyms. I have solved most it here https://pod-point.com/guides/driver/ev-dictionary  but PLP?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 08:49:41 AM by Bodidly » Logged
HalcyonRichard
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« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2019, 10:25:19 AM »


Short term hire = good to try :-

https://www.evezy.co.uk/

https://evexperiencecentre.co.uk/

Good forum

https://www.speakev.com/recent-activity/

Richard
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Bodidly
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« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2019, 11:30:24 AM »

That evezy link looks interesting. Quite tempted to try a Zoe for a bit and see how we get on with it. Shame we would have to go all the way to Bristol but not a deal breaker.

Thanks
« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 11:32:57 AM by Bodidly » Logged
phoooby
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« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2019, 11:34:57 AM »

PLP I assume you mean PCP (Personal contract purchase). ie. deposit, monthly payment followed by a 'balloon' payment to buy or hand back and walk away.

From you description of usage pattern and not knowing your budget, I would suggest a 30kw leaf which seem to be about £13-£17k at the moment. You might get away with a 24kw which would about £3-4k cheaper if the 130 mile trip is a round trip and you can charge at the destination via a 3 pip plug for 8hr etc or if you are prepared to do a public rapid charge if this is available on route or close to your destination.

I am perhaps bias having owned a 24kw leaf but they seem to have fewer problems than the Zoe and you dont have the monthly battery rental. Newer Zoes are available with battery included. I borrowed a 40kw one for a week and was quite impressed. It had about 150 miles range so would more than cover your all your usage. The Zoe is quite a bit smaller than the leaf so I guess it will depend on the variety of dog and amount of luggage.

Kia Soul also seems to be liked by owners but there a fewer around on the SH market.

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HalcyonRichard
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« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2019, 11:41:16 AM »

That evezy link looks interesting. Quite tempted to try a Zoe for a bit and see how we get on with it. Shame we would have to go all the way to Bristol but not a deal breaker.

Thanks

I think they will deliver but not sure. There is quite a discussion here :-

https://www.speakev.com/threads/the-evezy-discussion-thread.135610/

Richard
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todthedog
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« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2019, 12:38:43 PM »

Watching this thread with interest.

Couldn't convince myself when I did a similar exercise a couple of years back.

So hyundai i10 for the moment.

Not flat in Wales!

Keep us posted on what you deside.

Good luck.
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renewablejohn
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« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2019, 01:45:17 PM »

I am waiting for the C ion batterys to become mainstream before I dip my toe in the market. Just cannot justify Lithium as a technology to be supported.
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MeatyFool
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« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2019, 04:38:12 PM »

For circa £40 you can buy an ODB2 connector and Leafspy app.  This would enable you to check the health of the Leaf battery.  You know then what you are buying.  Speakev website has useful threads about usage.

I was fortunate.  I bought my 24kwh Leaf just as a whole load of 3 year PCPs came to the end and the Leaf 2.0 was imminent.  I ended up spending £500 less than the equivalent age diesel I part exchanged.

Depending on your mileage, you are likely to save quite a sum on fuel. If you are at all twitchy about your occasional longer trips, bear in mind you could probably hire a car a couple of times a year and still be in pocket if you so choose.

30kwh would be better, 40 kWh if budget allows.  My car is most definitely a second car only.  Gets me to and from work, does short weekend trips for local attractions, but would be useless without the first petrol car.  If I was a bit less risk averse, I might try longer trips using public chargers.  Your movement may vary!

Meatyfool..
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oliver90owner
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« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2019, 08:26:17 PM »

Yeah, PCP. whistlie

Watch out for vehicles with leased battery.  They were a popular on the Zoe, but on other marques/models, too.  One has the satisfaction that you know you are covered in the event of a failure, but may be paying handsomely for that. MExtra mileage, over the lease contract, can be expensive.

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Bodidly
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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2019, 03:42:56 PM »

Been trying to do my research.

We did one of our regular longer trips the other day and checked out charging options which were mixed. The midpoint charger which may be needed in anything less than perfect conditions looks good. It's a 43 kW charger that is in working order and always available. The only charge point near our destination is a 22 kW but due to problems with tampering is only available during working hours of the shop it's connected too. Probably not a deal breaker as the granny charger will probably suffice at that end.

Now I am mulling the big picture. Think I am right in saying we still use plenty of fossil fuels in our electricity generation in the UK.
These are some numbers from internet searches but they may well be off or double counted so looking for more expert numbers.

From what I can make out fossil fuel is converted to electricity at between 33%-50% efficiency

10% is then lost in transmission

The Renault Zoe charges at around 70% efficiency

EV car is 60% efficient

Can some bright spark work out what the total efficiency is?

An ICE car is around 20% efficient which at face value sounds dreadful but looking at the numbers above I am not so sure.



Don't get me wrong I am all for EVs running off renewables but while we are still using loads of fossil fuel in the UK is burning it in a car such a bad place? For us, we can probably charge one from some more PV and a nifty charger I saw called a Zappi that can divert excess PV to the car battery.

Thoughts on the above?


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renewablejohn
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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2019, 04:34:08 PM »

Been trying to do my research.

We did one of our regular longer trips the other day and checked out charging options which were mixed. The midpoint charger which may be needed in anything less than perfect conditions looks good. It's a 43 kW charger that is in working order and always available. The only charge point near our destination is a 22 kW but due to problems with tampering is only available during working hours of the shop it's connected too. Probably not a deal breaker as the granny charger will probably suffice at that end.

Now I am mulling the big picture. Think I am right in saying we still use plenty of fossil fuels in our electricity generation in the UK.
These are some numbers from internet searches but they may well be off or double counted so looking for more expert numbers.

From what I can make out fossil fuel is converted to electricity at between 33%-50% efficiency


Dont forget the efficiency of getting the oil out of the ground transporting to refinery converting to petrol or diesel then distribution to the petrol station. Nothing like comparing apples and pears.
10% is then lost in transmission

The Renault Zoe charges at around 70% efficiency

EV car is 60% efficient

Can some bright spark work out what the total efficiency is?

An ICE car is around 20% efficient which at face value sounds dreadful but looking at the numbers above I am not so sure.



Don't get me wrong I am all for EVs running off renewables but while we are still using loads of fossil fuel in the UK is burning it in a car such a bad place? For us, we can probably charge one from some more PV and a nifty charger I saw called a Zappi that can divert excess PV to the car battery.

Thoughts on the above?



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Countrypaul
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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2019, 04:38:00 PM »

Based on your figures, it suggests that a Zoe would be 13-19% efficient - but it is very easy to get the figures out of context.  It may well be that a ICE is only 20% efficient, but it could be only 10% depending on what the trip is. Just looking at efficiency of the car also does not give a reflection on the energy used, for example, a 38Ton lorry might be 30% efficient on a run up and down the motorway, whilst the BEV might only be 12% efficient on the school run so the ICE comes out better! The energy used however would tell a very different story.

Too easy to get carried away wth efficiency figues and miss the real picture.

On the sort of journeys you are looking at you need to compare the energy used by the ICE and that used by an equivalent BEV.  Also bear in mind that the fossil fuel used to produce electricity tends to be predominately gas which gives out proportionally less CO2 than petrol/diesel and the pollutants it gives out, eg. NOx, hydrocarbons, CO etc. also tends to be away from city centres.  

The efficiency of CCGT power stations is also around 62% from a quick google search, with national grid losses at 8% and DNO losses from 3-10%

I think the cost of producing the petrol/diesel is also around 6kWh/US gallon , so about 1.5kWh/Litre.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 04:43:09 PM by Countrypaul » Logged
Bodidly
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« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2019, 04:39:54 PM »




Dont forget the efficiency of getting the oil out of the ground transporting to refinery converting to petrol or diesel then distribution to the petrol station. Nothing like comparing apples and pears.





Not trying too hence me asking for other opinions just when I discovered the Zoe lost 30% during charging it got me wondering about the whole picture. Also this bit is the same either way "Dont forget the efficiency of getting the oil out of the ground" but not seen numbers on refining but yes they should be in there.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 04:42:55 PM by Bodidly » Logged
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