navitron
 
Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Anyone wishing to register as a new member on the forum is strongly recommended to use a "proper" email address - following recent spam/hack attempts on the forum, all security is set to "high", and "disposable" email addresses like Gmail, Yahoo and Hotmail tend to be viewed with suspicion, and the application rejected if there is any doubt whatsoever
 
Recent Articles: Navitron Partners With Solax to Help Create A More Sustainable Future | Navitron Calls for Increased Carbon Footprint Reduction In Light of Earth Overshoot Day | A plea from The David School - Issue 18
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: selling your PV to energy firms.  (Read 2443 times)
Mike McMillan
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 219


« on: June 09, 2019, 02:30:11 PM »

How is this going to work? I had not heard of this scheme before, maybe I've been asleep.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/09/energy-firms-buy-electricity-from-household-rooftop-solar-panels


Logged

Off grid; 4KWH install charging Rolls 24v 1000 A.H. batteries with 3 Tristar controllers. 3KW Victron Inverter with FIT meter on output. Relay driver automatically opens circuits as battery charges. 6 x 15 experimental solar collectors feeding 250 L. tank.  Angus wood gasification boiler.
RIT
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1971


« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2019, 03:08:18 PM »

The government write up can be found here

   https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-laws-to-guarantee-payment-for-solar-homes-providing-excess-electricity
   https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/the-future-for-small-scale-low-carbon-generation

The report lacks any real detail about the level of payments, just that a legal obligation on energy suppliers with over 250,000 customers will be made for them to pay some form of export tariff.


One key statement is "Fee will not be added to consumer bills as part of the UK’s transition to a subsidy-free", which indicates that any amount paid for the export will be low. An indication of how low can be seen with Octopus' tariff, which quotes a dynamic range of 4p (off-peak) to 10p (peak) or 5.5p fixed.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 03:22:15 PM by RIT » Logged

2.4kW PV system, output can be seen at  - https://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?userid=49083

Why bother? - well, there is no planet B
oliver90owner
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1960


« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2019, 09:24:24 PM »

4p per unit may not be enough of an incentive to sell surplus power until the water is heated by renewable leccy.  I would certainly not be encouraged to do that.  Gas may cost less, but with system inefficiencies the real cost is more than 4p per kWh.
Logged
RIT
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1971


« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2019, 09:57:57 PM »

4p per unit may not be enough of an incentive to sell surplus power until the water is heated by renewable leccy.  I would certainly not be encouraged to do that.  Gas may cost less, but with system inefficiencies the real cost is more than 4p per kWh.

My guess is that unless the government sets a minimum price you will see very few companies offer even 4p per kWh. Octopus and a few other 'green' providers are more likely to consider a higher rate as part of their business marketing, but the big players will just consider the whole process just another complication they have to deal with.
Logged

2.4kW PV system, output can be seen at  - https://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?userid=49083

Why bother? - well, there is no planet B
M
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5020



« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2019, 06:55:07 AM »

4p per unit may not be enough of an incentive to sell surplus power until the water is heated by renewable leccy.  I would certainly not be encouraged to do that.  Gas may cost less, but with system inefficiencies the real cost is more than 4p per kWh.

My guess is that unless the government sets a minimum price you will see very few companies offer even 4p per kWh. Octopus and a few other 'green' providers are more likely to consider a higher rate as part of their business marketing, but the big players will just consider the whole process just another complication they have to deal with.

Trying to think of a fair price, so just a suggestion, picking a random number of out thin air, how about 8.95p/kWh index linked against a 2012 baseline (so approx 10p/kWh today), and guaranteed for 35 years ....... just a thought.  Wink
Logged

Just call me Mart.     Cardiff: 5.58kWp PV - (3.58kWp SE3500 + 2kWp SE2200 WNW)
Westie
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 536


« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2019, 09:35:01 AM »

4p per unit may not be enough of an incentive to sell surplus power until the water is heated by renewable leccy.  I would certainly not be encouraged to do that.  Gas may cost less, but with system inefficiencies the real cost is more than 4p per kWh.

My guess is that unless the government sets a minimum price you will see very few companies offer even 4p per kWh. Octopus and a few other 'green' providers are more likely to consider a higher rate as part of their business marketing, but the big players will just consider the whole process just another complication they have to deal with.

Trying to think of a fair price, so just a suggestion, picking a random number of out thin air, how about 8.95p/kWh index linked against a 2012 baseline (so approx 10p/kWh today), and guaranteed for 35 years ....... just a thought.  Wink

Nice idea Mart.  If HMG set a fair min export fee it could likely turn into a subsidy free incentive for new domestic solar.  I would want to see the capital cost of a 3.6kw system repaid in 15 years so assuming 50% export and an installation cost of £3000 (in our new MCS free world!) 3000/15= so £200 pa income p/annum required from export.  A 3.6kw system would typically export 1800kwh per year so 'my' fair price per kwh would be  £200/1800 = 11p/kwh.

Logged

4kwp south facing array  SMA 4000TL grid connected.  2x30tube Navitron solar thermal panels (east/west). Arada 5kw S/C WBS. 25000Ltr underground rain water tank. KTM E-Bike  Cool
dan_b
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 3926


WWW
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2019, 11:00:50 AM »

For all the positive coverage of the UK govt's new "Smart Export Guarantee" for small renewables, it's worth noting Govt estimates that it would only increase deployment by up to 14.7MW (yes, MW) per year. Roughly 3,000 domestic solar rooftops.
You can read it here  https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/807422/smart-export-guarantee-impact-assessment.pdf



Logged

3.06kWp SolarEdge system with a split array:
2.18kWp 10x South facing, plus 4x West facing 880W

Mk1 ImmerSUN DHW diverter
4kW PowerVault Battery
M
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5020



« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2019, 11:27:29 AM »

4p per unit may not be enough of an incentive to sell surplus power until the water is heated by renewable leccy.  I would certainly not be encouraged to do that.  Gas may cost less, but with system inefficiencies the real cost is more than 4p per kWh.

My guess is that unless the government sets a minimum price you will see very few companies offer even 4p per kWh. Octopus and a few other 'green' providers are more likely to consider a higher rate as part of their business marketing, but the big players will just consider the whole process just another complication they have to deal with.

Trying to think of a fair price, so just a suggestion, picking a random number of out thin air, how about 8.95p/kWh index linked against a 2012 baseline (so approx 10p/kWh today), and guaranteed for 35 years ....... just a thought.  Wink

Nice idea Mart.  If HMG set a fair min export fee it could likely turn into a subsidy free incentive for new domestic solar.  I would want to see the capital cost of a 3.6kw system repaid in 15 years so assuming 50% export and an installation cost of £3000 (in our new MCS free world!) 3000/15= so £200 pa income p/annum required from export.  A 3.6kw system would typically export 1800kwh per year so 'my' fair price per kwh would be  £200/1800 = 11p/kwh.

I forgot to check for an April uplift on the HPC price, and it's no longer 10p but 10.2p, so a tad closer to your suggestion.

But wait ...... there's more, as all good telly shopping channels might say, we don't want to sell you that, we also want to throw in ......... and I swear this wasn't deliberate, just a happy co-incidence ........ but allowing for leccy distribution losses of 8%, localised generation has a value of 1.08x more, and guess what 10.2p x 1.08 is ....... yep I kid you not = 11p.

There you are, we've sorted it, and all fair, level playing field etc. etc..  extrahappy
Logged

Just call me Mart.     Cardiff: 5.58kWp PV - (3.58kWp SE3500 + 2kWp SE2200 WNW)
RIT
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1971


« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2019, 11:36:38 AM »

M and Westie I think you are both being a little optimistic. The government paper states the following

Quote
Government has considered the responses carefully and decided to legislate for mandated suppliers to offer eligible low carbon generators, as a minimum, a ‘simple’ flat rate tariff (i.e. option A in the consultation). Remuneration must be greater than zero all times and exported electricity should be metered and registered for settlement in accordance with the BSC. The aim of SEG is that over time suppliers offer smart export tariffs where the price paid varies on a half-hourly basis to reflect the wider electricity system conditions and maximise the benefits available to energy consumers. However, it’s recognised that some suppliers will not be ready to move to this type of tariff immediately.

So expect .01p to be paid when the sun is out and .015p to be paid when it is not.


dan_b the SEG Scenario 2 table seems to be more a figment of the government's imagination rather than something to calculate against as it

Quote
Assumes generators that can achieve higher levels of self-consumption are incentivised to increase deployment with the introduction of SEG. This means that even plants that cannot achieve the very lowest generation costs are able to increase deployment resulting in increased deployment across generators with higher levelised costs.

Their logic seems to be that having a backstop payment process that will pay an unknown (low) amount will allow large self-consumption projects to go ahead as it will improve the long term costings calculations. This is just BS and a way to allow them to claim that this offering has enabled all future projects to take place. The true results are more likely to be those shown in the Scenario 1 table.
Logged

2.4kW PV system, output can be seen at  - https://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?userid=49083

Why bother? - well, there is no planet B
Westie
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 536


« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2019, 12:10:45 PM »

M and Westie I think you are both being a little optimistic. The government paper states the following

Quote
Government has considered the responses carefully and decided to legislate for mandated suppliers to offer eligible low carbon generators, as a minimum, a ‘simple’ flat rate tariff (i.e. option A in the consultation). Remuneration must be greater than zero all times and exported electricity should be metered and registered for settlement in accordance with the BSC. The aim of SEG is that over time suppliers offer smart export tariffs where the price paid varies on a half-hourly basis to reflect the wider electricity system conditions and maximise the benefits available to energy consumers. However, it’s recognised that some suppliers will not be ready to move to this type of tariff immediately.

So expect .01p to be paid when the sun is out and .015p to be paid when it is not.


dan_b the SEG Scenario 2 table seems to be more a figment of the government's imagination rather than something to calculate against as it

Quote
Assumes generators that can achieve higher levels of self-consumption are incentivised to increase deployment with the introduction of SEG. This means that even plants that cannot achieve the very lowest generation costs are able to increase deployment resulting in increased deployment across generators with higher levelised costs.

Their logic seems to be that having a backstop payment process that will pay an unknown (low) amount will allow large self-consumption projects to go ahead as it will improve the long term costings calculations. This is just BS and a way to allow them to claim that this offering has enabled all future projects to take place. The true results are more likely to be those shown in the Scenario 1 table.

RIT, we may be suffering a bout of optimism but who would suffer if a fair export payment were put in place, are there any losers?

I suppose an export rate set at a fair level may actually disincentivise domestic battery storage?



 
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 12:14:17 PM by Westie » Logged

4kwp south facing array  SMA 4000TL grid connected.  2x30tube Navitron solar thermal panels (east/west). Arada 5kw S/C WBS. 25000Ltr underground rain water tank. KTM E-Bike  Cool
Countrypaul
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 1384


« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2019, 12:40:31 PM »

4p per unit may not be enough of an incentive to sell surplus power until the water is heated by renewable leccy.  I would certainly not be encouraged to do that.  Gas may cost less, but with system inefficiencies the real cost is more than 4p per kWh.

My guess is that unless the government sets a minimum price you will see very few companies offer even 4p per kWh. Octopus and a few other 'green' providers are more likely to consider a higher rate as part of their business marketing, but the big players will just consider the whole process just another complication they have to deal with.

Trying to think of a fair price, so just a suggestion, picking a random number of out thin air, how about 8.95p/kWh index linked against a 2012 baseline (so approx 10p/kWh today), and guaranteed for 35 years ....... just a thought.  Wink

Nice idea Mart.  If HMG set a fair min export fee it could likely turn into a subsidy free incentive for new domestic solar.  I would want to see the capital cost of a 3.6kw system repaid in 15 years so assuming 50% export and an installation cost of £3000 (in our new MCS free world!) 3000/15= so £200 pa income p/annum required from export.  A 3.6kw system would typically export 1800kwh per year so 'my' fair price per kwh would be  £200/1800 = 11p/kwh.


If you use your figures above, then assume 1800kWh per yer is used by yourselves at say 11p - doesn't that mean that the system would pay for itself in 15yrs anyway, and that any export is ether profit or goes towards the interest on the loan or missing from putting it in a savings account?
Logged
JohnS
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1991


« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2019, 03:29:53 PM »

If an energy supplier purchases domestic solar export to sell to their other customers, do they still have to pay all the 'green' levies, transmission costs etc?

Unless they are exempted from these, as they should be, I cannot see them paying a sensible amount.

If they are exempted, then suppliers should be falling over backwards to compete for exported electricity.
Logged

2.1kWp solar PV
M
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5020



« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2019, 03:45:29 PM »

M and Westie I think you are both being a little optimistic. The government paper states the following

Hiya RIT. TBH I'm not being optimistic at all, as I don't expect anything like that being paid, I just think we should note the difference between government policies.

Here's what they said regarding PV export payments:

Quote
Chris Skidmore, the minister for energy and clean growth, said the government wanted to increase the number of small-scale generators without adding the cost of subsidies to energy bills. “The future of energy is local and the new smart export guarantee will ensure households that choose to become green energy generators will be guaranteed a payment for electricity supplied to the grid,” he said. The government also hopes to encourage homes with solar panels to install batteries.

So they say the future is small scale, but can't subsidise due to the impact on energy bills, and repeated statements that technologies need to stand on their own feet. But at the same time are going to pay a massive subsidy on centralised new nuclear generation, starting in 10yrs time, despite 60yrs of nuclear subsidies already.

Why does nuclear get to sit down at the table and ask for seconds, after 60yrs, but PV and on-shore wind (after less than 10yrs) are an unreasonable impact on energy bill payers. If we can pay France and China 10.2p/kWh, then I think something similar would only be fair to UK households and small businesses. But I'm funny like that.  laugh

Sometimes, if only for our own sanity, we need to rage against the machine.
Logged

Just call me Mart.     Cardiff: 5.58kWp PV - (3.58kWp SE3500 + 2kWp SE2200 WNW)
RIT
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1971


« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2019, 04:15:23 PM »

For all the positive coverage of the UK govt's new "Smart Export Guarantee" for small renewables, it's worth noting Govt estimates that it would only increase deployment by up to 14.7MW (yes, MW) per year. Roughly 3,000 domestic solar rooftops.
You can read it here  https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/807422/smart-export-guarantee-impact-assessment.pdf






Everyone needs to read the text and table in detail, so they get a real idea of how little this is going to matter. The text states that the export guarantee will support installations up to 5MW now look at the supporting table. The expected total installed capacity per annum is measured in a range of between 4MW and 15MW.

This law will do nothing to stop the total collapse of MCS based installers as the table shows the expectation is that it will support the deployment of a few hundred home-based installations a year or 10s of farm-based installations.

Logged

2.4kW PV system, output can be seen at  - https://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?userid=49083

Why bother? - well, there is no planet B
RIT
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1971


« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2019, 04:20:45 PM »


Why does nuclear get to sit down at the table and ask for seconds, after 60yrs, but PV and on-shore wind (after less than 10yrs) are an unreasonable impact on energy bill payers. If we can pay France and China 10.2p/kWh, then I think something similar would only be fair to UK households and small businesses. But I'm funny like that.  laugh

Sometimes, if only for our own sanity, we need to rage against the machine.

I've posted my personal view on HPC a few times, just be thankful that all the other nuclear projects seem to have failed due to price.
Logged

2.4kW PV system, output can be seen at  - https://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?userid=49083

Why bother? - well, there is no planet B
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums
Simple Audio Video Embedder
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!