navitron
 
Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Anyone wishing to register as a new member on the forum is strongly recommended to use a "proper" email address - following recent spam/hack attempts on the forum, all security is set to "high", and "disposable" email addresses like Gmail, Yahoo and Hotmail tend to be viewed with suspicion, and the application rejected if there is any doubt whatsoever
 
Recent Articles: Navitron Partners With Solax to Help Create A More Sustainable Future | Navitron Calls for Increased Carbon Footprint Reduction In Light of Earth Overshoot Day | A plea from The David School - Issue 18
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: UK commits to net zero emissions by 2050  (Read 1147 times)
Bodidly
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1514



« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2019, 10:51:14 AM »

The elephant in the room is the massive negative impact agriculture has on our environment. Unless the government start taxing the meat industry into oblivion, we will just keep tinkering around at the edges with energy when the main issue is methane, excessive water use and pollution from animal feces.

Still, people need want to eat meat and so this will never happen.

Crops are not so great for the environment either https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/25/veganism-intensively-farmed-meat-dairy-soya-maize?fbclid=IwAR3bO5jAkW4W7c0VHoOvzQJ4kzaNn5nvttedO27zndwmfhMfDQ5u8zqTHZI

And it's hardly the elephant in the room as it's discussed everywhere we look
Logged
Pile-o-stone
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2019, 11:06:03 AM »

The elephant in the room is the massive negative impact agriculture has on our environment. Unless the government start taxing the meat industry into oblivion, we will just keep tinkering around at the edges with energy when the main issue is methane, excessive water use and pollution from animal feces.

Still, people need want to eat meat and so this will never happen.

Crops are not so great for the environment either https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/25/veganism-intensively-farmed-meat-dairy-soya-maize?fbclid=IwAR3bO5jAkW4W7c0VHoOvzQJ4kzaNn5nvttedO27zndwmfhMfDQ5u8zqTHZI

And it's hardly the elephant in the room as it's discussed everywhere we look

It's being discussed, but nothing is done about it. That's the point I'm trying to make - everyone shrugs their shoulders as though it's an insurmountable problem, when actually it's really easy to solve. We just stop eating meat. Not only will the planet thank us, but so will our bodies with with reduction of heart disease and cancer.

That link you sent is an opinion piece, not factual and it was written by someone in the meat industry and contained no facts to support the assertion that 'Veganism isn't the solution'. Somehow the solution is to eat meat that lives on open fields despite there not being enough land on the planet to house all this free roaming meat (even with deforestation).

As I said, it's all pointless as people are too selfish to give up meat and there is too much vested interest for politicians or even environmental groups like Greenpeace to do anything about it. The planet is doomed because people like the taste of meat and would see the planet die rather than eat a salad (ironic because they are also killing themselves by eating the stuff - at least there's cold comfort in that for those of us who do care enough about the planet to stop eating meat).
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 11:10:16 AM by Pile-o-stone » Logged

5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
Bodidly
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1514



« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2019, 12:36:29 PM »

The elephant in the room is the massive negative impact agriculture has on our environment. Unless the government start taxing the meat industry into oblivion, we will just keep tinkering around at the edges with energy when the main issue is methane, excessive water use and pollution from animal feces.

Still, people need want to eat meat and so this will never happen.

Crops are not so great for the environment either https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/25/veganism-intensively-farmed-meat-dairy-soya-maize?fbclid=IwAR3bO5jAkW4W7c0VHoOvzQJ4kzaNn5nvttedO27zndwmfhMfDQ5u8zqTHZI

And it's hardly the elephant in the room as it's discussed everywhere we look

It's being discussed, but nothing is done about it. That's the point I'm trying to make - everyone shrugs their shoulders as though it's an insurmountable problem, when actually it's really easy to solve. We just stop eating meat. Not only will the planet thank us, but so will our bodies with with reduction of heart disease and cancer.

That link you sent is an opinion piece, not factual and it was written by someone in the meat industry and contained no facts to support the assertion that 'Veganism isn't the solution'. Somehow the solution is to eat meat that lives on open fields despite there not being enough land on the planet to house all this free roaming meat (even with deforestation).

As I said, it's all pointless as people are too selfish to give up meat and there is too much vested interest for politicians or even environmental groups like Greenpeace to do anything about it. The planet is doomed because people like the taste of meat and would see the planet die rather than eat a salad (ironic because they are also killing themselves by eating the stuff - at least there's cold comfort in that for those of us who do care enough about the planet to stop eating meat).

Agreed it's an opinion piece but it's one I partly buy into. I don't think there is any holistic solution that feeds all the people while being organic and keeping the wider environment healthy. Everyone becoming vegan is being bandied about like it's some magic panacea. I have been chatting to a local organic veg grower about how we might grow veg here but due to shallow topsoil, he thought it would not be viable. He also said that organic compost for veg on most farms comes from the meat industry. You can get around that with a chemical fertilizer but then you run into problems with long term soil health.

 I have filled in some carbon footprint calculators and cutting out meat helped a little but made a surprisinly little impact, to my surprise I might add. A veg based diet is not carbon neutral by a long way. As I have said before there are large swathes of the UK that it's hard to grow anything other than grass on and in turn meat. Some would love to see these higher areas left to nature and it would be beautiful but then we have a world with too many mouths to feed. I agree that most of us eat too much meat but I don't think a 100% veggy life for all will be viable for all of us either.
Logged
Pile-o-stone
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2019, 01:58:43 PM »

Agreed it's an opinion piece but it's one I partly buy into. I don't think there is any holistic solution that feeds all the people while being organic and keeping the wider environment healthy. Everyone becoming vegan is being bandied about like it's some magic panacea. I have been chatting to a local organic veg grower about how we might grow veg here but due to shallow topsoil, he thought it would not be viable. He also said that organic compost for veg on most farms comes from the meat industry. You can get around that with a chemical fertilizer but then you run into problems with long term soil health.

 I have filled in some carbon footprint calculators and cutting out meat helped a little but made a surprisinly little impact, to my surprise I might add. A veg based diet is not carbon neutral by a long way. As I have said before there are large swathes of the UK that it's hard to grow anything other than grass on and in turn meat. Some would love to see these higher areas left to nature and it would be beautiful but then we have a world with too many mouths to feed. I agree that most of us eat too much meat but I don't think a 100% veggy life for all will be viable for all of us either.

Again, this is just an opinion and is not backed up by actual facts. The reality is that a large amount of land is actually used to grow food for livestock rather than humans.

https://www.simply-live-consciously.com/english/food-resources/food-consumption-of-animals/
"Did you know that 90 percent of the soybeans grown worldwide, 50 percent of the grain, and 40 percent of the fish caught are fed to livestock? This very fact should make all those think again who assume that livestock animals are basically fed grass. Apart from that many people still believe that the rainforests and our climate are destroyed in order to provide soy products for vegans. Actually the opposite is true: about 90% of soybeans are used for making animal products.

........

Putting all the figures together, we can see that the grain (5.58 billion) and the soybeans (1.29 billion) which are fed to livestock animals would suffice to nourish 6.87 billion people. In contrast, meat (863 million), milk (529 million), fish (210 million) and eggs (119 million) together can feed only 1.72 billion people. As a consequence, we can say that approximately an additional 5,2 billion people could be nourished if the plants needed for animal food were directly eaten by man."


"The facts shown here should be able to convince any critic of veganism – at least as far as the waste of resources is concerned. For it is often argued that it would be impossible to feed all people on a vegan diet as the larger part of farmland could not be used for plants which can be eaten by man.

Like many other such arguments, this one, too, is based on superficial knowledge and on the erroneous assumption that livestock animals solely feed on grass. The facts given above clearly refute this argument. "


« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 02:05:01 PM by Pile-o-stone » Logged

5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
Bodidly
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1514



« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2019, 02:50:51 PM »

Agreed it's an opinion piece but it's one I partly buy into. I don't think there is any holistic solution that feeds all the people while being organic and keeping the wider environment healthy. Everyone becoming vegan is being bandied about like it's some magic panacea. I have been chatting to a local organic veg grower about how we might grow veg here but due to shallow topsoil, he thought it would not be viable. He also said that organic compost for veg on most farms comes from the meat industry. You can get around that with a chemical fertilizer but then you run into problems with long term soil health.

 I have filled in some carbon footprint calculators and cutting out meat helped a little but made a surprisinly little impact, to my surprise I might add. A veg based diet is not carbon neutral by a long way. As I have said before there are large swathes of the UK that it's hard to grow anything other than grass on and in turn meat. Some would love to see these higher areas left to nature and it would be beautiful but then we have a world with too many mouths to feed. I agree that most of us eat too much meat but I don't think a 100% veggy life for all will be viable for all of us either.



Again, this is just an opinion and is not backed up by actual facts. The reality is that a large amount of land is actually used to grow food for livestock rather than humans.

https://www.simply-live-consciously.com/english/food-resources/food-consumption-of-animals/
"Did you know that 90 percent of the soybeans grown worldwide, 50 percent of the grain, and 40 percent of the fish caught are fed to livestock? This very fact should make all those think again who assume that livestock animals are basically fed grass. Apart from that many people still believe that the rainforests and our climate are destroyed in order to provide soy products for vegans. Actually the opposite is true: about 90% of soybeans are used for making animal products.

........

Putting all the figures together, we can see that the grain (5.58 billion) and the soybeans (1.29 billion) which are fed to livestock animals would suffice to nourish 6.87 billion people. In contrast, meat (863 million), milk (529 million), fish (210 million) and eggs (119 million) together can feed only 1.72 billion people. As a consequence, we can say that approximately an additional 5,2 billion people could be nourished if the plants needed for animal food were directly eaten by man."


"The facts shown here should be able to convince any critic of veganism – at least as far as the waste of resources is concerned. For it is often argued that it would be impossible to feed all people on a vegan diet as the larger part of farmland could not be used for plants which can be eaten by man.

Like many other such arguments, this one, too, is based on superficial knowledge and on the erroneous assumption that livestock animals solely feed on grass. The facts given above clearly refute this argument. "




Some numbers without the wider picture. Farming is complicated not just some neat numbers. None of the above addresses declining soil health or fertilizer organic or otherwise. We could entirely feed our sheep on grass but don't do at present but have in the past.

Don't be too condescending with "superficial knowledge" as I have lived and worked the land all my life and see the effects of different farming practices on a daily basis.
Logged
Pile-o-stone
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2019, 03:08:54 PM »


Some numbers without the wider picture. Farming is complicated not just some neat numbers. None of the above addresses declining soil health or fertilizer organic or otherwise. We could entirely feed our sheep on grass but don't do at present but have in the past.

Don't be too condescending with "superficial knowledge" as I have lived and worked the land all my life and see the effects of different farming practices on a daily basis.

I'm happy to read anything that post to support your position, but at the moment you've just supplied an opinion piece from a meat farmer that was riddled with errors and omissions, your own opinion and the opinion of some other bloke. I'd suggest that to expect people to just 'take your word for it' because you have lived and worked on farms is way more condescending than my approach of defending my position with facts and pointing out when opinions have been dressed as fact. Plus I've not done it in an unfriendly manner and I hope it hasn't come across that way.
Logged

5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
renewablejohn
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2944



« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2019, 03:33:21 PM »


Some numbers without the wider picture. Farming is complicated not just some neat numbers. None of the above addresses declining soil health or fertilizer organic or otherwise. We could entirely feed our sheep on grass but don't do at present but have in the past.

Don't be too condescending with "superficial knowledge" as I have lived and worked the land all my life and see the effects of different farming practices on a daily basis.

I'm happy to read anything that post to support your position, but at the moment you've just supplied an opinion piece from a meat farmer that was riddled with errors and omissions, your own opinion and the opinion of some other bloke. I'd suggest that to expect people to just 'take your word for it' because you have lived and worked on farms is way more condescending than my approach of defending my position with facts and pointing out when opinions have been dressed as fact. Plus I've not done it in an unfriendly manner and I hope it hasn't come across that way.


Yet more farmer bashing on Navitron.  Well just to start defending the farming community from this vegan twaddle. The great fish pile they refer to is actually the processing waste from your lovely fish fillets or do you believe there magically disposed of. No its turned into animal feed that is turned into meat whichsome of us actually enjoy eating. As for soya thats obviously come from an American website where production techniques are totally different to the UK.
Logged
smegal
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1564


« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2019, 03:50:51 PM »


Some numbers without the wider picture. Farming is complicated not just some neat numbers. None of the above addresses declining soil health or fertilizer organic or otherwise. We could entirely feed our sheep on grass but don't do at present but have in the past.

Don't be too condescending with "superficial knowledge" as I have lived and worked the land all my life and see the effects of different farming practices on a daily basis.

I'm happy to read anything that post to support your position, but at the moment you've just supplied an opinion piece from a meat farmer that was riddled with errors and omissions, your own opinion and the opinion of some other bloke. I'd suggest that to expect people to just 'take your word for it' because you have lived and worked on farms is way more condescending than my approach of defending my position with facts and pointing out when opinions have been dressed as fact. Plus I've not done it in an unfriendly manner and I hope it hasn't come across that way.


Yet more farmer bashing on Navitron.  Well just to start defending the farming community from this vegan twaddle. The great fish pile they refer to is actually the processing waste from your lovely fish fillets or do you believe there magically disposed of. No its turned into animal feed that is turned into meat whichsome of us actually enjoy eating. As for soya thats obviously come from an American website where production techniques are totally different to the UK.

POS falls into a common trap that many ideological vegans fall into. Anyone can cherry pick data. The source they listed above is heavily cherry picked.

Very few cows in the UK are fed on soya, the example of soya use is in areas where beef is raised in intensive feedlots. Cows in the UK are mainly fed on grass, or silage (grass). Some are fed on maize, but this is the whole maize crop turned to silage. People would only eat the cobs.

Agricultural methane is also a dodgey item to get excited about. The methane is from the natural carbon cycle, not released from the ground (think gas leaks form the O&G industry). This methane also decays back to C)2 eventually.

You are vegan for your reasons, that's great. Should we cut down on meat, yes. Would cutting down be more healthy, yes. Would cutting meat down to nothing be healthier than eating meat in moderation I'd argue probably not (if you can find true peer reviewed evidence, I'm all ears). The only way I could see the vegan diet being more healthy is that the inherent lack of essential nutrients means that vegans are forced to give their diet a greater level of assessment than a normal balanced diet.
Logged

When you’re thirsty, it’s too late to dig a well. - Unknown
Pile-o-stone
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2019, 04:55:50 PM »



Yet more farmer bashing on Navitron.  Well just to start defending the farming community from this vegan twaddle. The great fish pile they refer to is actually the processing waste from your lovely fish fillets or do you believe there magically disposed of. No its turned into animal feed that is turned into meat whichsome of us actually enjoy eating. As for soya thats obviously come from an American website where production techniques are totally different to the UK.

It's not farmer bashing to be against the production of meat and the mono-crop cultivation of feedstuffs for those livestock.

Not sure what you're talking about with my 'lovely fish fillets' as I'm vegan and so don't eat fish in any form. The waste from fish processing (and the appalling throwbacks of dead fish into the sea due to quotas) are therefore nothing to do with me. My hands are clean. Smiley
Logged

5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
Pile-o-stone
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2019, 05:04:37 PM »


POS falls into a common trap that many ideological vegans fall into. Anyone can cherry pick data. The source they listed above is heavily cherry picked.

Very few cows in the UK are fed on soya, the example of soya use is in areas where beef is raised in intensive feedlots. Cows in the UK are mainly fed on grass, or silage (grass). Some are fed on maize, but this is the whole maize crop turned to silage. People would only eat the cobs.

Agricultural methane is also a dodgey item to get excited about. The methane is from the natural carbon cycle, not released from the ground (think gas leaks form the O&G industry). This methane also decays back to C)2 eventually.

You are vegan for your reasons, that's great. Should we cut down on meat, yes. Would cutting down be more healthy, yes. Would cutting meat down to nothing be healthier than eating meat in moderation I'd argue probably not (if you can find true peer reviewed evidence, I'm all ears). The only way I could see the vegan diet being more healthy is that the inherent lack of essential nutrients means that vegans are forced to give their diet a greater level of assessment than a normal balanced diet.

Do you have any evidence to support your assertions, or are we to just take your word for it? It seems a little churlish of you to berate me for 'cherry picking' my data while you're providing none whatsoever.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/29/revealed-industrial-scale-beef-farming-comes-to-the-uk
"Thousands of British cattle reared for supermarket beef are being fattened in industrial-scale units where livestock have little or no access to pasture."

I don't understand how you can argue that we should cut down on eating meat (I assume for environmental reasons) and that reducing meat consumption is healthier and then in the next sentence say you don't believe it's healthier? Either it is or it isn't, it can't be both.

I'm not sure what essential nutrients I'm lacking in my diet that you have in your 'normal' diet? I'm certainly missing out on the lack of fibre, the high cholesterol and saturated fat and the growth hormones and antibiotics. I'm also missing out on the nitrates, preservatives and various chemicals used in processed meats.

If you're alluding to B12, which is the only essential nutrient that can't be obtained from plants or sunlight, then I'd ask if you knew where B12 comes from?

Here's some info:

While it is true that plants do not produce vitamin B12, neither do animals inherently produce it. B12 is produced by bacteria that live in the soil and in the intestines of animals, including humans; however, in humans and other animals, it is generally manufactured too far down the intestinal tract (in the colon, in our case) to be absorbed, and is instead excreted in feces, where it is abundant.

Most farmed animals are not a natural source of B12.

Cattle, sheep and other ruminants have ample B-12 producing bacteria in the first chamber of their four-chambered stomachs, and in natural environments can synthesize B12 for absorption as long as there are sufficient amounts of cobalt in the soil where they graze. (Non-ruminant herbivores such as elephants get B12 from dirt and fecal matter ingested with the grass and forage they consume.) Chickens and other birds take in B12 from soil and insects. B12 is then stored in the livers and muscles of these animals, and some passes into their milk and eggs. In the wild, carnivorous and omnivorous animals can thus get B12 by eating other animals.

 Modern farmed animals, however, do not consume a natural diet; most farmed animals are confined for some or all of their lives and receive supplemental B12 or cobalt in their feed. (3, 4) (Cobalt is the element necessary for ruminant B12 synthesis, and cobalt supplementation of all ruminant diets throughout the US is currently recommended). In fact, most of the world’s synthetic B12 (55-90% depending on the source) is consumed by farmed animals. (5, 6) Even organic and pastured animals receive supplemental B12 or cobalt. This means that in industrialized societies, most meat, eggs and dairy are not any more “natural” as sources of B12 than the fortified foods or supplements vegans consume. In both cases, the B12 derives from a synthetic supplement."

https://freefromharm.org/health-nutrition/b12-magic-pill-veganisms-achilles-heel/

More info:
https://baltimorepostexaminer.com/carnivores-need-vitamin-b12-supplements/2013/10/30
"Cattle and other grass-eating animals get B12 and B12 producing bacteria from clumps of dirt around the grass roots that they pull up. Chickens and other birds get B12 from pecking around for worms and other insects. But, cattle no longer feed on grass and chickens do not peck in the dirt on factory farms. Even if they did, pesticides often kill B12 producing bacteria and insects in soil. Heavy antibiotic use kills B12 producing bacteria in the guts of farm animals. In order to maintain meat a source of B12 the meat industry now adds it to animal feed, 90% of B12 supplements produced in the world are fed to livestock. Even if you only eat grass-fed organic meat you may not be able to absorb the B12 attached to animal protein. It may be more efficient to just skip the animals and get B12 directly from supplements."

So basically, I get my B12 from a supplement that I digest, and you get your B12 from a supplement that the animal you eat digest. I just get B12, you get B12 and saturated fat, cholesterol, growth hormones, antibiotics, etc. etc.

I'd much rather just get the B12 thanks and cut out the other ingredients Smiley
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 05:50:59 PM by Pile-o-stone » Logged

5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
Pile-o-stone
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2019, 06:01:44 PM »

One final thought for people who eat meat, despite its undoubted impact on the environment and on their health, they might want to think about the workers who have to kill the animals.

https://metro.co.uk/2017/12/31/how-killing-animals-everyday-leaves-slaughterhouse-workers-traumatised-7175087/

"If a pig came and nuzzled you like a puppy, would you be able to kill it just moments later? This is one of the scenarios faced by slaughterhouse workers on a daily basis. They see animals that are, in many ways, no different to those we welcome into our homes as family members. They then have to kill them. Hundreds, sometimes thousands of them a day. The psychological toll this takes on a person cannot be underestimated. Slaughterhouse work has been linked to a variety of disorders, including PTSD and the lesser-known PITS (perpetration-induced traumatic stress). It has also been connected to an increase in crime rates, including higher incidents of domestic abuse, as well as alcohol and drug abuse. And as the already huge demand for meat goes up, so too does the number of animals employees are required to kill on a daily basis."

Logged

5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
renewablejohn
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2944



« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2019, 06:52:30 PM »

One final thought for people who eat meat, despite its undoubted impact on the environment and on their health, they might want to think about the workers who have to kill the animals.

https://metro.co.uk/2017/12/31/how-killing-animals-everyday-leaves-slaughterhouse-workers-traumatised-7175087/

"If a pig came and nuzzled you like a puppy, would you be able to kill it just moments later? This is one of the scenarios faced by slaughterhouse workers on a daily basis. They see animals that are, in many ways, no different to those we welcome into our homes as family members. They then have to kill them. Hundreds, sometimes thousands of them a day. The psychological toll this takes on a person cannot be underestimated. Slaughterhouse work has been linked to a variety of disorders, including PTSD and the lesser-known PITS (perpetration-induced traumatic stress). It has also been connected to an increase in crime rates, including higher incidents of domestic abuse, as well as alcohol and drug abuse. And as the already huge demand for meat goes up, so too does the number of animals employees are required to kill on a daily basis."

Quite frankly have little sympathy. Its what you get when the local slaughterhouse is closed down.  Always used to walk the old sow down to the local slaughter house in the village.  Probably spent 5 years of contented happy life  on the farm and if we left any longer than atheritus would set in and only be fit for the knackerman.   Once humanely killed by the butcher would be taken back to the farm and everything processed apart from the squeal.  Generation before that it would have been killed and processed on the farm. All this talk of food waste and recyling was totally unheard of on the farm as the Sow was the mobile recycling unit.


Logged
renewablejohn
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2944



« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2019, 07:01:29 PM »



Yet more farmer bashing on Navitron.  Well just to start defending the farming community from this vegan twaddle. The great fish pile they refer to is actually the processing waste from your lovely fish fillets or do you believe there magically disposed of. No its turned into animal feed that is turned into meat whichsome of us actually enjoy eating. As for soya thats obviously come from an American website where production techniques are totally different to the UK.

It's not farmer bashing to be against the production of meat and the mono-crop cultivation of feedstuffs for those livestock.

Not sure what you're talking about with my 'lovely fish fillets' as I'm vegan and so don't eat fish in any form. The waste from fish processing (and the appalling throwbacks of dead fish into the sea due to quotas) are therefore nothing to do with me. My hands are clean. Smiley

This is where vegans get it hopelessly wrong. Soya is grown for one purpose to produce oil. Whether you use it as margarine or refine it into biofuel is totally irrelevant. What you do get from pressing that oil is a protein rich meal which used to be discarded until some bright spark found out you could turn it into a viable waste product and call it animal feed. So its not acres of Soya grown for animal feed at all much to the annoyance of the vegan society but a useful byproduct that could just as easily be disposed of in an AD plant generating electric.
Logged
Pile-o-stone
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2019, 08:22:50 PM »

This is where vegans get it hopelessly wrong. Soya is grown for one purpose to produce oil. Whether you use it as margarine or refine it into biofuel is totally irrelevant. What you do get from pressing that oil is a protein rich meal which used to be discarded until some bright spark found out you could turn it into a viable waste product and call it animal feed. So its not acres of Soya grown for animal feed at all much to the annoyance of the vegan society but a useful byproduct that could just as easily be disposed of in an AD plant generating electric.

Yep, and once the oil is extracted the remaining solid soybean meal is made into flour to provide the basis for soy milks, meat analogues (i.e. veggie burgers), etc. and it's also fermented into tofu or tempeh.

So I'm not sure what your point is except that you're basically agreeing with what I have said earlier:

Livestock is fed on soya beans* that could instead be used to feed billions of humans, so we won't starve to death without meat. Far from it.
Livestock is fed on soya beans* rather than on grass so the animals are B12 deficient and have to be supplemented, which means humans who eat meat are getting B12 from supplements, just like vegans - but they also get growth hormones, antibiotics, saturated fats, etc.

It's a shame you have 'little sympathy' for people who get PTSD from working in slaughter houses as it's not their fault that the industrial nature of livestock production means animals are killed on an industrial scale rather than down the local village butchers. Kinda adds to my point that people are eating too much meat and it's not sustainable.

*Other grains are used to feed animals, not just soya.
Logged

5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
renewablejohn
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2944



« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2019, 08:45:42 PM »

This is where vegans get it hopelessly wrong. Soya is grown for one purpose to produce oil. Whether you use it as margarine or refine it into biofuel is totally irrelevant. What you do get from pressing that oil is a protein rich meal which used to be discarded until some bright spark found out you could turn it into a viable waste product and call it animal feed. So its not acres of Soya grown for animal feed at all much to the annoyance of the vegan society but a useful byproduct that could just as easily be disposed of in an AD plant generating electric.

Yep, and once the oil is extracted the remaining solid soybean meal is made into flour to provide the basis for soy milks, meat analogues (i.e. veggie burgers), etc. and it's also fermented into tofu or tempeh.

So I'm not sure what your point is except that you're basically agreeing with what I have said earlier:

Livestock is fed on soya beans* that could instead be used to feed billions of humans, so we won't starve to death without meat. Far from it.
Livestock is fed on soya beans* rather than on grass so the animals are B12 deficient and have to be supplemented, which means humans who eat meat are getting B12 from supplements, just like vegans - but they also get growth hormones, antibiotics, saturated fats, etc.

It's a shame you have 'little sympathy' for people who get PTSD from working in sl  aughter houses as it's not their fault that the industrial nature of livestock production means animals are killed on an industrial scale rather than down the local village butchers. Kinda adds to my point that people are eating too much meat and it's not sustainable.

*Other grains are used to feed animals, not just soya.

Yes other grains like brewers grains yet again a waste product of the brewing industry with no useful purpose apart from feeding to animals. Its not the grains of soya fed to animals but the pressed waste. The same with oil seed rape. the seed is cold pressed and the oil extracted with the waste fed to animals. The common thread through all these animal feeds is the recycling of a waste product into a useful product that some humans enjoy eating. Its nothing to do with raising animals in an industrial environment it just does not happen in the UK. As for the stock photo of the 3000 herd its a pity you did not look at the whole video from which the photo was taken. If you had you would have soon realised its actually fake news as around all the buildings on the site is rows and rows of farm machinery. Its quite obvious what has been taken is an aerial photograph of an auction market. To be honest if there is only 3000 animals at the market then its quite a small market.
For your information a lot of farmers have protested for years at the loss of local slaughter houses all to no avail. It makes no sense to farmers whatsoever but the rules are made by government and have shut local abbatoirs.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums
Simple Audio Video Embedder
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!