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Author Topic: UK commits to net zero emissions by 2050  (Read 1128 times)
smegal
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« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2019, 09:11:18 PM »


POS falls into a common trap that many ideological vegans fall into. Anyone can cherry pick data. The source they listed above is heavily cherry picked.

Very few cows in the UK are fed on soya, the example of soya use is in areas where beef is raised in intensive feedlots. Cows in the UK are mainly fed on grass, or silage (grass). Some are fed on maize, but this is the whole maize crop turned to silage. People would only eat the cobs.

Agricultural methane is also a dodgey item to get excited about. The methane is from the natural carbon cycle, not released from the ground (think gas leaks form the O&G industry). This methane also decays back to C)2 eventually.

You are vegan for your reasons, that's great. Should we cut down on meat, yes. Would cutting down be more healthy, yes. Would cutting meat down to nothing be healthier than eating meat in moderation I'd argue probably not (if you can find true peer reviewed evidence, I'm all ears). The only way I could see the vegan diet being more healthy is that the inherent lack of essential nutrients means that vegans are forced to give their diet a greater level of assessment than a normal balanced diet.

Do you have any evidence to support your assertions, or are we to just take your word for it? It seems a little churlish of you to berate me for 'cherry picking' my data while you're providing none whatsoever.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/29/revealed-industrial-scale-beef-farming-comes-to-the-uk
"Thousands of British cattle reared for supermarket beef are being fattened in industrial-scale units where livestock have little or no access to pasture."and how many more are not intensively farmed?

I don't understand how you can argue that we should cut down on eating meat (I assume for environmental reasons) and that reducing meat consumption is healthier and then in the next sentence say you don't believe it's healthier? Either it is or it isn't, it can't be both. I said that cutting down was probably good, cutting OUT is probably bad.

Here is a simplistic analogy for you. For many people cutting down on salt intake is good. Cutting it out altogether would be bad for you!

I'm not sure what essential nutrients I'm lacking in my diet that you have in your 'normal' diet? I'm certainly missing out on the lack of fibre, the high cholesterol and saturated fat and the growth hormones and antibiotics. I'm also missing out on the nitrates, preservatives and various chemicals used in processed meats.

If you're alluding to B12, which is the only essential nutrient that can't be obtained from plants or sunlight, then I'd ask if you knew where B12 comes from?

Here's some info:

While it is true that plants do not produce vitamin B12, neither do animals inherently produce it. B12 is produced by bacteria that live in the soil and in the intestines of animals, including humans; however, in humans and other animals, it is generally manufactured too far down the intestinal tract (in the colon, in our case) to be absorbed, and is instead excreted in feces, where it is abundant.

Most farmed animals are not a natural source of B12.

Cattle, sheep and other ruminants have ample B-12 producing bacteria in the first chamber of their four-chambered stomachs, and in natural environments can synthesize B12 for absorption as long as there are sufficient amounts of cobalt in the soil where they graze. (Non-ruminant herbivores such as elephants get B12 from dirt and fecal matter ingested with the grass and forage they consume.) Chickens and other birds take in B12 from soil and insects. B12 is then stored in the livers and muscles of these animals, and some passes into their milk and eggs. In the wild, carnivorous and omnivorous animals can thus get B12 by eating other animals.

 Modern farmed animals, however, do not consume a natural diet; most farmed animals are confined for some or all of their lives and receive supplemental B12 or cobalt in their feed. (3, 4) (Cobalt is the element necessary for ruminant B12 synthesis, and cobalt supplementation of all ruminant diets throughout the US is currently recommended). In fact, most of the world’s synthetic B12 (55-90% depending on the source) is consumed by farmed animals. (5, 6) Even organic and pastured animals receive supplemental B12 or cobalt. This means that in industrialized societies, most meat, eggs and dairy are not any more “natural” as sources of B12 than the fortified foods or supplements vegans consume. In both cases, the B12 derives from a synthetic supplement."

https://freefromharm.org/health-nutrition/b12-magic-pill-veganisms-achilles-heel/

More info:
https://baltimorepostexaminer.com/carnivores-need-vitamin-b12-supplements/2013/10/30
"Cattle and other grass-eating animals get B12 and B12 producing bacteria from clumps of dirt around the grass roots that they pull up. Chickens and other birds get B12 from pecking around for worms and other insects. But, cattle no longer feed on grass and chickens do not peck in the dirt on factory farms. Even if they did, pesticides often kill B12 producing bacteria and insects in soil. Heavy antibiotic use kills B12 producing bacteria in the guts of farm animals. In order to maintain meat a source of B12 the meat industry now adds it to animal feed, 90% of B12 supplements produced in the world are fed to livestock. Even if you only eat grass-fed organic meat you may not be able to absorb the B12 attached to animal protein. It may be more efficient to just skip the animals and get B12 directly from supplements."

So basically, I get my B12 from a supplement that I digest, and you get your B12 from a supplement that the animal you eat digest. I just get B12, you get B12 and saturated fat conventional wisdom on saturated fats is changing, the same for cholesterol, the real evil seems to be hydrogenated trans fats, cholesterol, growth hormones banned in the UK, antibioticsheavily regulated in the UK, etc. etc.  any diet that needs supplements cannot be considered a healthy diet.

I'd much rather just get the B12 thanks and cut out the other ingredients Smiley

I wasn't just alluding to B12. If a person eats a normal balanced diet, they eat some meat, dairy, eggs, fruit and veg. That gives you all that you need.

Vegans need to carefully manage their diets to ensure they get enough protein, iron and yes, B12. 

I'm not the one posting articles that are clearly stating cherry picked "facts".

You seem to be a serious victim of confirmation bias, yet question when people talk from real experience, not just vegan echo chambers.
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When you’re thirsty, it’s too late to dig a well. - Unknown
Pile-o-stone
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« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2019, 10:49:18 PM »

Lol, it’s like talking to climate deniers, no matter what evidence you supply, what scientific data you provide, despite even the evidence of our own eyes, they just call it fake news and dismiss it.

This is EXACTLY what my initial post on this thread was about. The elephant in the room that cannot be spoken about, the debate that is closed down because of the vested interest and Intimidation

Surprised and disappointed to find it on a sustainability forum, though.
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renewablejohn
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« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2019, 11:07:14 PM »

Easy to make these announcement, but much harder to deliver on them. A major step would be to electrify all of the train network, which is taking place but at a snails pace. It's much needed, especially at Victoria train station in Manchester where you can almost see the air when the diesel trains sit in the station for a while.

So I presume this is the initial post your referring to.  Well all I can say is you must be going to a different Manchester Victoria station to the one that I go to. All the trams through Victoria are electric , Trains to Preston, Warrington and Liverpool are electric. The only train I can still think of as being diesel is the train to Clitheroe.
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Pile-o-stone
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« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2019, 11:09:18 PM »

Easy to make these announcement, but much harder to deliver on them. A major step would be to electrify all of the train network, which is taking place but at a snails pace. It's much needed, especially at Victoria train station in Manchester where you can almost see the air when the diesel trains sit in the station for a while.

So I presume this is the initial post your referring to.  Well all I can say is you must be going to a different Manchester Victoria station to the one that I go to. All the trams through Victoria are electric , Trains to Preston, Warrington and Liverpool are electric. The only train I can still think of as being diesel is the train to Clitheroe.

Ah, you’re one of those. I understand now.
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stannn
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« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2019, 07:07:13 AM »

I’m locking this thread to prevent further warming!
Stan
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