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Author Topic: Low profile Floor insulation under tiles  (Read 4810 times)
benseb
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« on: June 14, 2019, 07:48:17 PM »

Hi

Weíre getting our ground floor amtico removed and limestone tiles to replace.

I was really hoping to add UFH but our adjoining kitchen is already tiled and I donít fancy a 70mm step down on an open plan kitchen.  Also we have some concrete steps going up and having half a first step will look a bit strange.

So just wondering if thereís anything we can put under the tiles to improve insulation thatís low enough profile to not be a big issue?

Itís a solid concrete (earth? Who knows!) floor underneath.
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stannn
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« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2019, 08:57:04 PM »

Aerogel comes to mind but is very expensive. https://www.ribaproductselector.com/Docs/6/20666/external/COL635834.pdf
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2.45 kWp PV (Navitron supply), 40 evacuated tubes (Navitron supply), Clearview 650 log burner with back-boiler heating cottage and water, 2 off 50W border collies, 1 off 35W cat, 1 off 25W cat.
benseb
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« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2019, 06:13:04 PM »

Yes v expensive!

Iíve just seen the 15mm and 18mm Nuheat low profile UFH systems. Seems the pipes are set into a type of EPS. How effective are these set onto a concrete floor - do they really work without additional insulation below?

 E
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benseb
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2019, 04:07:34 PM »

Been looking at various UFH systems and insulation and there seems to be two options:


25mm ProWarm XPS panel with 16mm pipes at 150mm centres
120w/m2 heat output

Or

10mm Klima Thermal panel with Klima Slim Fit 12mm pipe system  and levelling compound, 100mm centres
1
150w/m2 heat output



We would then tile directly on top of these


Option A seems to have more insulation, and is cheaper but Iím concerned the heat output is on the lower side.

Does anyone have any experience with either system?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 04:11:45 PM by benseb » Logged
Countrypaul
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2019, 04:49:59 PM »

How is the heat output defined? Given the heat output is dependant on the floor covering you need to make sure that both are based on the same flooring over the UFH and the same temperature water in the pipes. If tiling directly ontop of the UFH you may also need a board (can't remember the name) to allow for the different expansion and contraction ratesotehrwise you will just end up with cracked tiles.

Have you got any calculations to give you an idea of how much heat is likely to be needed in the room from the UFH? There is no point in going for the one with the highest heat output if both are over the top of what you are likely to require.
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benseb
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2019, 05:49:17 PM »

Just waiting for our heat loss calcs from the GSHP installers so can use that

All figures were quoted for tiles which is what weíre Using

Reading around it seems the systems are fairly similar. Iíll probably go with the largest diameter pipes I can use even if it means an extra 7mm build up. Our heating has got jammed up before due to a small amount of micro ore in the system so Iíd hate for it to choke up the UFH too.
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marshman
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2019, 08:09:14 PM »

Just waiting for our heat loss calcs from the GSHP installers so can use that

All figures were quoted for tiles which is what weíre Using

Reading around it seems the systems are fairly similar. Iíll probably go with the largest diameter pipes I can use even if it means an extra 7mm build up. Our heating has got jammed up before due to a small amount of micro ore in the system so Iíd hate for it to choke up the UFH too.


My UFH uses 22mm PEX pipe at 12" centres (300mm), it is all under wooden floorboards and utilises aluminium spreader plates. The underfloor insulation is minimal compared to todays standards, just 2 x 1" (25mm) of jablite (expanded polystyrene) over a 4" (100mm) concrete slab - the pipes are laid in the top layer so only have 25mm insulation below. House has always been pretty warm and easy to heat.  Our previous house had the same pipes (22mm pex @300mm ctrs) but in a 50mm screed. Underneath were 2 layers of 2L2 ( foil covered bubble wrap) over the 100mm concrete oversite. That system was driven by an early gas condensing boiler (house was built in 1989). Really economical system to run, our gas bills were at least half of anyone else I knew with a comparable sized property.

Double check the heatloss calcs you are given and look at the data and design temps. Also double check the quoted heat outputs of the UFH under what ever floor coverings you have. It needs to be correct as it is expensive, if not impossible to correct afterwards if it is wrong (i.e. not enough heat output for the heat loss). Also remember it is better to run a heat pump for long periods at very low temperatures rather than like a conventional boiler that runs at higher temps for a shorter time, so you have to factor that in as well.

With regard to pipes getting blocked. The system should have no debris in it if properly flushed when commissioned and fitted with a mag type trap/filter. It should be effectively a sealed system with corrosion inhibitor so nothing to block pipes at all.  In our current house before I got the GSHP installed my UFH was driven by a wood burning boiler stove and ran for some 30 years like that (originally installed in 1985). It was powerflushed prior to connecting the GSHP but not that much came out of the system and the pipes still look like new.

Roger
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Bikerzz
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« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2019, 09:26:51 AM »

Thank You Marshman. Reading this I feel far less worried only being able to get 40/50mm celotex in my UFH build in September in some rooms.
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benseb
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« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2019, 07:34:14 AM »

Thanks all

Weíve gone with the 25mm polypipe system. 25mm XPS insulation boards with 16mm poly pipe at 150mm centres

Heat output with tiles is quoted at 120w/m2 at 45c which is about double our heat loss.

Itís expensive, about 3k for a 50sqm area but this way we get the benefit of UFH and some insulation at the best levels we can without a huge upheaval of digging up the floor

Excited to see it go down now!
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