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Author Topic: Eastern UK Power cuts  (Read 8096 times)
Countrypaul
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« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2019, 10:36:59 AM »

Cyber attack. 2 generators going down within 2 mins off each other in summer would not have this effect. Of course that will not be the official reason.

What seems to be clear is that 2 generators did go down within 2 mins of each other and did have this effect.

Whether the reason is a cyber attack, incompetance, bad luck, or incorrect setup won't really matter as some people will believe what they want and dismiss the other possibilities as conspiricy theorys anyway.
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Philip R
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« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2019, 11:19:22 AM »

I worked on a similarly equipped Ccgt in Lincolnshire about 10 years ago. It was tripped from full load due to the onset of severe vibration on both GTs caused by flame instability.
Twnenty minutes later we found out that another power plant with GTs of a different design and manufacturer had come off for similar reasons. The cause, the gas supply had been changed over to a different supply with different characteristics,enough to upset the combustion.
Single cause failure, the gas supply.
Aa for hornsea,I do know nothing of its onyerconnection methology to the land based sibstation, so cannot comment.

protection Relays including frequency sensing types are set to a spec, with some tolerance, as electromechanical and analogue types are a little variable.Out of tolerance, then adjusted and tested, until they are working to spec.
Under Frequency protection relays are set with a spread of operating frequencies, so loads do not all drop out together. The areas that suffered the power outage, had their under frequency relays operate first.
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Nickel2
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« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2019, 01:45:53 PM »

Philip R; ...'severe vibration on both GTs caused by flame instability'...
Ah, pieces starting to fit together now!
In the local paper (to the plant), residents have been complaining of really deep, loud "booms" waking them at night.
I have experienced a similar thing sitting in the van 20 yards away from a process-steam boiler when I was doing load-banking at a certain Surrey site. The windows of the van were visibly going in and out like one of those ridiculously loud car stereo kilowatt sound systems; I thought they'd break. It was only when the boiler lit, and turned out to be thermo-acoustic instability / resonance. (A serious problem that can cause structural damage at large mass high amplitude occurrences)
They re-tweaked the mixture, (gas), and the noise reduced to a soft woomph.
It may be, like you said, that was the cause.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 01:48:23 PM by Nickel2 » Logged

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gnarly
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« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2019, 02:02:47 PM »



The press has been saying Little Barford and Hornsea are "independent failures", however if the frequency reduction to 48.88Hz (as reported by Guardian) caused the Hornsea shutdown a few mins later then I wouldn't say this is independent at all.

What might the low frequency disconnect be set to on a large wind farm like Hornsea?  Would there be any risk of damage to a wind farm by the frequency dropping more than this?  (if not, then why disconnect at all if it would only cause cascading problems...?)
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renewablejohn
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« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2019, 02:14:29 PM »

Hornsea is still very much work in progress at the moment. The village that I grew up in still has the main road into the village shut due to work on the Hornsea cables so its quite rational that any power spike would result in an automatic shutdown to protect the workers.
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dan_b
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« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2019, 03:32:59 PM »

According to this article, the powercut could have been worse were it not for a growing fleet of grid-scale batteries which were able to rapidly inject power into the grid within seconds, and then along came Dinorwig

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/uk-power-cut-batteries-national-grid
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« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2019, 04:03:29 PM »

Another interesting blog from an industry insider

https://www.flexitricity.com/blog/fridays-power-cuts-few-answers-and-more-questions/
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oliver90owner
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« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2019, 06:50:44 PM »

It may have been an unfortunate time, when Dinorwig was already supplying peak period power to the grid, so not able take up all the slack as it might well do at other times.

16 seconds to full power, if reserve is spinning, apparently.
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nowty
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« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2019, 08:51:44 PM »

It may have been an unfortunate time, when Dinorwig was already supplying peak period power to the grid, so not able take up all the slack as it might well do at other times.

16 seconds to full power, if reserve is spinning, apparently.

I visited it over 30 years ago, I cannot even remember how or why ?

But I do still remember two huge vertical spinning metal shafts which were very impressive.
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JohnS
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« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2019, 10:08:21 PM »

I note that Flexitricity state a 1652 outage whereas other sources state 1658, IIRC. Also Horner's went down two minutes later.

If 1658 is correct, would the change over of suppliers at the half hour period end at 1700, have made the situation worse or have prevented a worse blackout.

I also note that Ofgem were quick to say that there must be a full investigation and fines imposed.  Perhaps they need to look to see if their own balance point between resilience and cost is set at the right point.
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renewablejohn
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« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2019, 10:38:12 PM »

I note that Flexitricity state a 1652 outage whereas other sources state 1658, IIRC. Also Horner's went down two minutes later.

If 1658 is correct, would the change over of suppliers at the half hour period end at 1700, have made the situation worse or have prevented a worse blackout.

I also note that Ofgem were quick to say that there must be a full investigation and fines imposed.  Perhaps they need to look to see if their own balance point between resilience and cost is set at the right point.

It does sound like the initial trip at  Little Barford was over compensated so at the half hour Hornsea was killed by mistake which then created the auto shutdown.
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dan_b
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« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2019, 11:03:19 AM »

Another industry insider article.
This time this one is saying Hornsea failed first, not the gas plant. Curiouser and curiouser.

http://www.ukerc.ac.uk/news/what-happened-electricity-system-fri-aug-9-2019.html
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« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2019, 01:25:16 PM »

Another industry insider article.
This time this one is saying Hornsea failed first, not the gas plant. Curiouser and curiouser.

http://www.ukerc.ac.uk/news/what-happened-electricity-system-fri-aug-9-2019.html

What Keith Bell's written there is:
Quote
on Friday afternoon at soon after 16:52, two sources of power were lost within less than a minute of each other: 790 MW from Hornsea 1 offshore wind farm and 660 MW from Little Barford gas-fired power station, the latter due to what its owner, RWE, said was a ‘technical fault’.

While that could be interpreted as meaning that Hornsea went offline first, I think Keith has deliberately chosen language that leaves the question open.
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stannn
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« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2019, 12:28:24 PM »

https://www.rechargenews.com/wind/1838142/technical-fault-at-worlds-largest-offshore-wind-farm-before-uk-blackout
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« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2019, 10:45:26 AM »

Interim report
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/20/national-grid-blames-lightning-strike-for-blackout-ofgem

Lightning strikes took out both generators plus some embedded systems within seconds causing a loss bigger than the Grid’s 1GW reserve.
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