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Author Topic: British start-up beats world to Holy Grail of cheap energy storage  (Read 1352 times)
RIT
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« on: August 26, 2019, 09:52:07 PM »

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/08/26/british-start-up-beats-world-holy-grail-cheap-energy-storage/

It is a write up on Highview Power and their "cryogenic" liquid air storage solution.
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stannn
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« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2019, 10:10:31 PM »

https://www.highviewpower.com/technology/
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« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2019, 08:09:50 AM »

This could be another game changer but without costings it is always difficult to judge.
One disadvantage over surplus to hydrogen is the hydrogen can be stored transported eg in the case of ferries,agriculture and aeroplanes which are very significant polluters.

Without significant storage like these techs then we can never get close to 100% wind and sun because the capacity factor and hence financial return will fall to a very low fig and make the the plant uneconomic.  Unless of course if the tax payer funds the under utilsed capacity.

In the Orkney isles they are already producing Hydrogen and the new ferries will be hydrogen powered. I think the ferries are being built by the Glasgow shipyard that was recently baled out by the Scottish Gov.
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GarethC
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« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2019, 08:44:36 AM »


Without significant storage like these techs then we can never get close to 100% wind and sun because the capacity factor and hence financial return will fall to a very low fig and make the the plant uneconomic.  Unless of course if the tax payer funds the under utilsed capacity.

Ultimately yes, the last chunk of storage needed (that most seldom used) may have to be government funded, unless the marginal cost of storage has approached very very low levels, which I think it might. Until then though, should be plenty of commercially viable ventures if storage becomes vaguely cost effective?
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« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2019, 08:53:47 AM »

This could be another game changer but without costings it is always difficult to judge.

And it's way too early too judge. What Highview and others need, is forward-looking governments to invest in the deployment of trials, to see how quickly the costs come down.

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One disadvantage over surplus to hydrogen is the hydrogen can be stored transported eg in the case of ferries,agriculture and aeroplanes which are very significant polluters.

There is still a future for hydrogen. The thing is, every month, something else comes along that shrinks that potential future. So it's gone from being the potential answer to everything, to, the being the market it has today, plus long-haul aviation and shipping. And ... that's probably it. It might change, but I really wouldn't bet on it.

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Without significant storage like these techs then we can never get close to 100% wind and sun because the capacity factor and hence financial return will fall to a very low fig and make the the plant uneconomic.

Well, there's no reason to skip water-based power. And it is entirely possible to do bioenergy well. So 100% wind and sun isn't necessary, and is unlikely to be as economical as a mixed system that includes water, bioenergy, geothermal where available.

But as for meeting that last 0.1% of demand: if the cost at that time is greater than the value to the consumer at that time, then the rational thing to do is to not consume at that time. It probably doesn't make sense for anyone else to subsidise that consumption.
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RIT
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« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2019, 05:56:51 PM »

This could be another game changer but without costings it is always difficult to judge.
One disadvantage over surplus to hydrogen is the hydrogen can be stored transported eg in the case of ferries,agriculture and aeroplanes which are very significant polluters.

Without significant storage like these techs then we can never get close to 100% wind and sun because the capacity factor and hence financial return will fall to a very low fig and make the the plant uneconomic.  Unless of course if the tax payer funds the under utilsed capacity.

In the Orkney isles they are already producing Hydrogen and the new ferries will be hydrogen powered. I think the ferries are being built by the Glasgow shipyard that was recently baled out by the Scottish Gov.

I would say that it's a horses for courses situation. If the aim is for low cost grid-level storage then hydrogen generation is a costly process with fairly low efficiency. On the other hand, hydrogen makes a lot of sense for certain transport needs where the mode of transport is certain to return to a known location for a fill-up.

At the moment Highview seem to be getting contracts (as noted in the new report) and they claim 60% efficiency for the full cycle (without access to external heat/cold sources). Hydrogen production via electrolysis is reportedly heading to 80% efficiency, but that excludes the energy lost during the storage phase and the electricity generation phase.
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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2020, 07:41:20 AM »

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk
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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2020, 07:46:21 AM »

That's made my morning, been following them for so many years. I don't know if LAES is 'the' solution, or just one of the many longer term, larger scale storage solutions, but off-the-shelf kit, that is easily scaleable/modular, with significant efficiency gains if co-located next to a waste heat or cold facility. What's not to love.
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« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2020, 01:40:25 PM »

That's made my morning, been following them for so many years. I don't know if LAES is 'the' solution, or just one of the many longer term, larger scale storage solutions, but off-the-shelf kit, that is easily scaleable/modular, with significant efficiency gains if co-located next to a waste heat or cold facility. What's not to love.

Yeah, they've been brewing for a long time, and I really hope that it comes good. It's been a very slow journey from prototype to large-scale commercial deployment. There will be a lot of eyes on their performance.
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« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2020, 02:02:58 PM »

Do we know what the round-trip efficiency of liquid air storage is approximately? Wonder how it compares to battery and also pumped hydro.
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« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2020, 02:09:21 PM »

Do we know what the round-trip efficiency of liquid air storage is approximately? 


It's not an easy question to answer. The short answer is woeful. But LAES' main selling point is that it can be coupled with waste heat (or cold) to increase the round trip efficiency to a sensible level. I've also seen options to store the waste heat from liquefaction and use it for the expansion stage.
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smegal
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« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2020, 02:13:19 PM »

That's made my morning, been following them for so many years. I don't know if LAES is 'the' solution, or just one of the many longer term, larger scale storage solutions, but off-the-shelf kit, that is easily scaleable/modular, with significant efficiency gains if co-located next to a waste heat or cold facility. What's not to love.

Yeah, they've been brewing for a long time, and I really hope that it comes good. It's been a very slow journey from prototype to large-scale commercial deployment. There will be a lot of eyes on their performance.

The slough plant was a sensible sized prototype. We're hardly talking a university project there. Some strange things seemed to go on with them. I went to a summit in 2014 about LAES, but that was more focused on alternative used for using LA as opposed to true LAES then all went quiet. Next thing you see (from my point of view, they dropped off the radar for a while) they seemed to drop mentions of Dearman changed CEO and have gained some traction again. Although this Manchester plant has been talked about for a while. 
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Philip R
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« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2020, 02:21:01 PM »

Good enough to be reasonably economic, compact, not requiring a mountain range for reservoirs and dams and best of all, No mention of lithium batteries or the Muskrat.

It is made of commodies like steel, has rotating machinery that provide useful things like inertia, and low transient reactance. At the end of life, hopefully it will be many years hence, easy to clean to recycle.
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« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2020, 03:06:03 PM »

It is made of commodities like steel

Yeah, a big part of its attraction was that it was in many ways a new way of assembling well-understood components in a new way. Peter Dearman looked Carnot's Law, and available technology, and came to some very promising conclusions.

https://atlasofthefuture.org/project/the-dearman-engine/
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GarethC
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« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2020, 03:07:18 PM »

Presumably what matters is the levelised cost of storage, taking into account not just the efficiency but capital and operating costs and the assumed cost of input electricity. Assuming the capital and operating cost of this per MWh must compare very favourably to alternatives?
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