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Author Topic: Low cost outdoor showers. heating, construction and grey water disposal.  (Read 963 times)
regen
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« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2019, 05:38:05 AM »

Your approach is fine if its just for family and friends but if you hope to offer it to the general public then you may well be opening a real can of worms.
Even the most basic five sites now have facilities far better than you describe and you only want one disgruntled customer to start digging and the possibilities for litigation become real.

Planning permission,change of use,building regs etc.

Only needs one neighbour to approach the council to get a visit. Inadequate waste water control and spillage into nearby stream and water authorities and NRW become interested if someone reports it.

Would you be covered for these "what ifs"
1. somebody contacted listeria from your showers.
2. somebody got an electric shock from your self installed wiring.
3 somebody was scalded due to failure of the shower heating control
4. C0 poisoning from heating system in yurt
the list is endless!

Good luck and hope it all works out for you.
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TheBrick2
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« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2019, 11:18:07 AM »

I am aware of the planning permission issues, insurance etc and I am covered on that but that's not the question being asked. The question was to do with processing of grey water (and if you note in my op I referenced building regulations) and heating of water so showers can be nice and warm, preferably any ideas on eco ways to achieve this. As for carbon monoxide and slow poisoning via gases in general in confined spaces is a always a big thing with me but again heating of units was not what I referencing.

I think the barrel idea is going to be the basis of my system but having done some more reading around this area I may add some additional filtering. I love the solar thermal systems as a preheat. Solar thermal was my initial thought but had not considered it as a system to argument a lpg heater, stupid really as I am using renewable to help with heating my DHW but with electric top up but my mind was in "off grid" mode. I also felt it was probably too unreliable on its own unless over specked. I think any solar preheat will be a project for the following year depending on success.

This is only a very small set-up not a caravan club site (awful places). Peak season height of summer. We have been to many campsites our-self with good quality showering facilities (yes warm) that are not expensive buildings, the construction of the that is not an issue so don't worry about that, I am very resourceful, I have access to lots of recycled building material. I think most of you seem to be getting diverted onto other points so please keep on track.

I will post pictures when done, hopefully by May figures crossed. I will also post cost details (or a least rough costs I am sure there will be things overlooked / missed).
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julian
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« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2019, 11:18:42 AM »

I've a friend setting up a glamping site here.

His setup sounds similar and I am confused at the choices he is making - again, I think the clue is in the name - glamorous camping.  But I'm told I am wrong and things being rubbish is all part of the experience....

If it were me -

I'd build a solid shower block.  Out of hard stuff.  I offered my friend tonnes of rock, for example...

Id finish it really nicely.  Burnished lime and all that.

I'd stick a load of solar panels on the roof, and hook up as large a thermal store as I could find on eBay for cheap.

If then get a oil condensing combi boiler and use that in tandem with the panels.  Which would be a cop out, but it would mean hot water all the time regardless of weather.  

I'd possibly even heat the shower block.  If you have an unheated wooden structure, with a shower inside it, it's going to grow...

You know, there nothing more glamorous as a cold shower in a mouldy shed.


The solar will add 6 or 700 to your cost.  A condensing oil boiler off eBay, if you look hard enough, might be 200 for an internal one or 400 for external.  If you're building the structure, just get an internal one and build to accommodate.

Thermal store, maybe £200.  I mean not tomorrow, but if you keep a good eye on things for some time.

Pumps and all the rest?  You could burn £500?

Then your structure itself... Who knows.  You can get knackered sheds off Freecycle.  Or go the whole "it's fun if it's rubbish" things and build it out of old pallets?

Again, my idea of glamorous and other people's ideas evidently differ.  I don't understand what my friend is trying to pull off, but above are some ideas for you.
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TT
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« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2019, 11:25:18 AM »

Glamping- luxurious camping.

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julian
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« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2019, 11:27:53 AM »

Ps

As for greywater... I'd assume you have black water also.

Again, my idea of glamorous is not being able to see the previous users morning "waste" in a composting, but that's just me...

I'd deal with the black and the grey by just shelling out the money and dropping a klargestor etc in there.

You will also have the waste from your users cooking washing.  Campers love cooking meat on bbq type things.  That means fats in your waste stream.  That will kill a soak away fairly quickly.

So, yeah, if it were me, I'd drop in somthing proper that would work.   But that is outside your budget, so I'm not sure of the solution.
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al barge
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« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2019, 12:07:39 PM »

I see the budget is more like £1k, but do you have a watercourse nearby? If you could actually stretch to £2k you could have a proper sewage treatment plant (STP) which is allowed to discharge into a watercourse without needing to get a licence. This would treat black water also.

Grey water can have high concentrations of pathogens and be unpleasant, care needs to be taken with how it's treated, which there is a lot of online info on SuDS drainage with reedbeds etc. Although an STP will digest and minimise pathogens in a handy minimal care form, we installed a UV pond filter on our outlet also as it's in our barge on a river and wanted to have as minimal an impact on the environment as possible.

We used this German made system: (hopefully Navitron don't mind)

https://biocellwater.com/product/biocell-quickone-plus/

But there are others:

https://marshindustries.co.uk/products/portapura/

https://www.premiertechaqua.co.uk/products/wastewater/solido-%E2%80%93-sbr-sewage-treatment-plant.aspx#

https://www.wte-ltd.co.uk/vortex_sewage_treatment_plant.html

If possible though and you have a mains sewer connection, why not just get a cheap pumping station or even a macerator like a Stuart Turner Wasteflo and pipe in 32mm up to 50m?


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Countrypaul
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« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2019, 02:31:10 PM »

For the shower water you might also want to look at waste heat recovery using a heat exchanger between the waste water and the cold water feeding the shower. Whilst this may only raise the temperature of the water slightly, that will in turn mean less hot water used in the mix and a consequent saving of energy and if bottled gas powered possibly significant money.
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MR GUS
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« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2019, 03:10:21 PM »

Well good luck building that over again next year or two if you screw up, as even something used for peak months only has to survive the weather the rest of the year round to be cost effective.

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TT
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« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2019, 08:53:51 PM »

Grease traps at the sinks will deal with any cooking fats, £200 gets a good stainless steel version.
Just fitted one a few months ago
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TT
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« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2019, 08:56:18 PM »



Easy way to do soakaways
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offthegridandy
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« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2019, 08:43:28 PM »

Hi there Mr Brick.

Seems to me there's a lot of negative vibes about here.

If your guests can wait till lunch time, pure solar thermal with natural circulation to a copper cylinder mounted over the shower station should work. No pumps no power and every chance of scalding the user unless you fit a temperature controlled blender valve. But if they will want hot showers at 8 AM then some supplementary heating will probably be needed. and Billi's propane heater will work  best with water being pre heated from solar thermal storage tank. Propane heater  can be bought for under £200 for washing horses etc. So I suggest you get your guest so smashed at night that they don't get up until lunch time thus avoiding the need for the propane heater.

As I said before grey water can be sorted by  using for irrigation and using a drum filled with sand and gravel will give sufficient cleansing.

Although you have not asked I'll pitch in my 2 penny worth.  For an off grid low cost solution to sewage or black water, the best answer is to not create any.  "Black water" (sewage) is made when sausage and urine combine. The urine stops  the natural decomposition of the solid matter and creates the smell; best solution is to avoid that happening and that is the principle of compost toilets.  Most people dislike compost toilets because they are expected to sit over a box and do their business in an open hole, not good. The composting doesn't take place properly as the urine is still present and that delays the bacterial breakdown of the sausage.

 However for under £1000 you can purchase a toilet that separates the 2  elements at source ie 2 tanks under the seat one for each product.  The sausage is then decomposed and properly  compostable and can be used for flower gardens (or burnt)and the urine which is virtually sterile can be piped away mixed with water and used as a highly nutritious fertiliser as well.  These types of toilets are available for sale (and legal to use in the UK) from a company caled Woowoo I believe. My knowledge of these matters stems from nearly 20 years in the portable toilet hire business and is not the idle raving of an old man!!!  A dearer alternative is to use a gas powered toilet that literally burns the sausage.  These will cost around £3000 but all you have left over is a cup full of dried matter as the urine is evaporated off and the soldis are burnt.  Electric  (240VAC)  versions are also available.

Just to help you along  if you can get to mid wales I can let you have a set of solar tubes, brand new and unused.  They were a gift to me for the price of the diesel  and I got a number of sets when I went up north recently.  I have it in mind to do something similar to that which you propose so my generosity has a price attached.  I'll want to know how you get on.

PM me if your interested.

Andy.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 08:45:42 PM by offthegridandy » Logged

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biff
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« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2019, 07:42:47 AM »

Excellent helpful post Andy,
     Thank you.
              Biff
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chasfromnorfolk
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« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2019, 08:34:41 AM »

Iíve been waiting for this thread to shake out before adding my bit and itís this - from the perspective of 7 seasons yurt glamping operation.

Do not build a shower block. Whatever heat source you use for the water (& Iíd suggest avoiding anything 240v for safetyís sake plus the regulation it brings in its wake) make the environment quirky, not utilitarian. Glampers like quirky. Fwiw, I built a shepherdís hut on a twin wheel trailer chassis that contains a sink, compost toilet and shower. It drains to nothing more adventurous than a short gravel filled trench. It does not smell. They get a yurt and a shepherdís hut. Glamping bliss!

Take Andy up on his offer, itíll be an education in itself and invaluable.

Cheers,

Chas
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TT
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« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2019, 02:34:34 PM »

If this is for paying customers, I hope you have good insurance!
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