navitron
 
Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Anyone wishing to register as a new member on the forum is strongly recommended to use a "proper" email address. Following continuous spam/hack attempts on the forum, "disposable" email addresses like Gmail, Yahoo and Hotmail tend to be viewed with suspicion, and the application rejected if there is any doubt whatsoever
 
Recent Articles: Navitron Partners With Solax to Help Create A More Sustainable Future | Navitron Calls for Increased Carbon Footprint Reduction In Light of Earth Overshoot Day | A plea from The David School - Issue 18
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: BA to review fuel-tankering.  (Read 435 times)
stannn
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5540



« on: November 11, 2019, 12:44:09 PM »

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/nov/11/ba-to-review-fuel-tankering-after-panorama-revelations
Logged

2.45 kWp PV (Navitron supply), 40 evacuated tubes (Navitron supply), Clearview 650 log burner with back-boiler heating cottage and water, 2 off 50W border collies, 1 off 35W cat, 1 off 25W cat.
dan_b
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4997

SW London


WWW
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2019, 01:54:15 PM »

Never knew this was "a thing".

The other half of this equation - what actually happens when an airliner "dumps excess fuel"?  Do they really just open a valve and kerosene is let into the atmosphere and it just falls to the ground/ evaporates? 
Logged

3.06kWp SolarEdge system with a split array:
2.18kWp 10x South facing, plus 4x West facing 880W

Mk1 ImmerSUN DHW diverter
4kW PowerVault Battery

Tesla Model 3 Long Range
RIT
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2317

South West London


« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2019, 03:01:27 PM »

Do they really just open a valve and kerosene is let into the atmosphere and it just falls to the ground/ evaporates? 

Just about, due to the plane's speed, the fuel is well distributed and the dumping normally happens at a high enough altitude to allow the fuel to vaporize. Not all planes need to dump fuel, just those that have a lower landing weight limit than their take off-limit. If the limits are the same they can land with all the fuel they took off with. The other solutions are to just burn fuel by circling or in the case of some planes land and then perform a lot of maintenance checks as planes often have a higher 'structural landing' maximum for an emergency.
Logged

2.4kW PV system, output can be seen at  - https://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?userid=49083

Join the fight against human malware at https://stats.foldingathome.org/team/259956

Why bother? - well, there is no planet B
JohnS
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2109


« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2019, 08:23:26 PM »

I await the BBC article on the excess fuel consumption caused by people driving around with full fuel tanks instead of just enough for the next journey and filling up at the destination.

Also foreign lorries coming to the UK with extra large diesel tanks so that they don't have to fill up in the UK at expensive prices.

Just think of the extra weight being carted around.

Logged

2.1kWp solar PV  PHEV West London
pdf27
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1757


« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2019, 10:03:46 PM »

I bet those same people would be screaming if their aircraft ran low on fuel and had to make an emergency landing somewhere else!

I used to know an airline pilot whose nickname was "minimums". That is, he'd do the fuel calculation, check the wind and say "OK, we'll take minimum fuel", i.e. the calculated minimum safe fuel level. The fact that this was unusual enough that he got a nickname out of the practice tells you all you need to know - it's a very risk-averse industry, and I'd be quite surprised if there really was a widespread practice of taking on excess fuel to avoid higher refuelling charges. Lots of people taking more fuel margin I could see, even carrying more fuel to reduce turnaround time on a short flight - but the economics suggested just don't stack up.

Quote
However, documents seen by the BBC showed a recent BA flight to Italy took on board nearly three tonnes of extra fuel: a cost saving of just £40 but which meant an additional 600kg of CO2 was emitted.
600kg of CO2 is 200kg of jet fuel - 220 litres. For a saving of £40 (I'm assuming the cost differential between 3 tonnes in the UK and Italy) that's a saving of 18p per litre of additional fuel burned - when jet fuel is 44p/litre. In other words, carrying the 3 tonnes of additional fuel cost BA £50 or so more than carrying minimums. That isn't a cost saving measure, that's them being risk-averse about running out of fuel.
Logged
dan_b
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4997

SW London


WWW
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2019, 10:30:28 PM »

The rumour I heard was that RyanAir would routinely run at fuel minimums so that they could get quicker landing slots and thus spend less time waiting/getting delayed - “sorry tower low on fuel request priority landing”...
Logged

3.06kWp SolarEdge system with a split array:
2.18kWp 10x South facing, plus 4x West facing 880W

Mk1 ImmerSUN DHW diverter
4kW PowerVault Battery

Tesla Model 3 Long Range
Philip R
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1691

South Cheshire


« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2019, 08:30:16 PM »

I remember as a child growing up in Reading, a PanAm Jumbo jet flew over my school at very low altitude, it cast a shadow as it was so low to the ground. I recall seeing liquid discharging from various points along each wing. Later that afternoon and for the next two days, Reading stank of paraffin. Found out from reading the Reading Chronicle that the plane had sufferred two engine failures of its P&W engines and had to dump fuel quickly to reduce weight before safely returning to Heathrow.

In my previous employment, I had to regularly fly out to Italy to work in one of our  factorys. On a flight back home, we flew home at low altitude and low speed. Our Lady Pilot told us that we were flying slowly to eke out the fuel as refuelling was not not possible at Malpensa as the fuel stocks in Italy were very low. The ppilot was requesting to land the plane before Manchester as fuel levels were low. Due to bad weather, we had to land at John Lennon in Liverpool and hope that we could get a splash of fuel and ferry back to Manchester. The Scousers would not oblige so we had to bus it back to Manchester airport to pick up my car.
As we approached Manchester airport, I saw our Plane fly into Manchester airport (The runway cleared of snow). Back in the building, the lady pilot and colleagues appeared as they headed out.
I spoke to her and she told me that with an empty plane they made a flight back to Manchester, but theplane ran out of fuel as it landed, and the plane was being retrieved from the end of the runway. It was runing on vapour.!
Perdonally, I would rather the plane had some extra fuel. You dont knoew if you will get a fill at some foreign airport or have bad weather change your destination or face stronger headwind.

Regarding cars and trucks with heavy fuel tanks. What about people with their ski roof racks on all year.!
Back in the 70's. UK trucks transitting through Germany en route to the middle east would have to show the German customs, that they had purchased some diesel in Germany to contribute some Tax to their system.

Philip R
Logged
RIT
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2317

South West London


« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2019, 12:38:43 AM »

The rumour I heard was that RyanAir would routinely run at fuel minimums so that they could get quicker landing slots and thus spend less time waiting/getting delayed - “sorry tower low on fuel request priority landing”...

At least in the EU, such things are reportable as flights are expected to fly with enough fuel to reach their destination or 2 possible alternative airports listed on their flight plan, plus an extra 30 minutes of general flying time and enough for the final approach.

What will happen is that any airport that has a delay and is stacking planes for any length of time will start to have to land those planes that have followed the EU guidelines ahead of those planes that have extra reserves. This can cause one hell of a knock-on effect as planes may start to head to their alternative airports and so overload them as well. For a busy airport like Gatwick, in a busy region like the south-east, it can mean that all take-offs get delayed across a number of airports to get the planes down once problems start.

This page will provide an indication of how complex it all is

     https://www.eurocockpit.be/positions-publications/fuel-policy-safety-consistency

The key line is "The Commander has the final authority" as he will be held responsible for any problems caused by a lack of fuel, which means its rather hard to have a company force fuel limits on to its aircrew. Instead, there is a natural bias for extra fuel to be loaded.
Logged

2.4kW PV system, output can be seen at  - https://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?userid=49083

Join the fight against human malware at https://stats.foldingathome.org/team/259956

Why bother? - well, there is no planet B
JohnS
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2109


« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2019, 09:44:11 AM »


I remember as a child growing up in Reading, a PanAm Jumbo jet flew over my school at very low altitude, it cast a shadow as it was so low to the ground. I recall seeing liquid discharging from various points along each wing. Later that afternoon and for the next two days, Reading stank of paraffin. Found out from reading the Reading Chronicle that the plane had sufferred two engine failures of its P&W engines and had to dump fuel quickly to reduce weight before safely returning to Heathrow.

Philip R

I have heard of that incident.  Legend has it that at first Heathrow Air Traffic Control refused Pan Am permission to dump.  An increasingly irate Pan Am captain kept requesting and being refused permission.  He learnt that it was because the flight would pass over Windsor Castle.  The captain then asked Heathrow ATC to call the Lady and ask if she wanted the fuel or the plane on the castle.
Logged

2.1kWp solar PV  PHEV West London
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums
Simple Audio Video Embedder
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!