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Author Topic: Proven 6kw Turbine performance decreasing  (Read 8594 times)
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« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2020, 12:19:14 PM »

First impressions I would say (from personal experience) that you can rule out the turbulence issue - not perfect but then few turbine locations are.

Can't quite make out the scales on the rectifier interface or inverter display - what are typical voltage & amps for high wind speeds? Is the connected dump load operating much?

Off grid AC coupled, 6kW Proven, 2.8kW PV, SMA SI/SB/WB Inverters, 4x576ah Rolls batteries @ 24v, 25kW Biomass Boiler, Wood Stoves, Spring/Well water. Sorry planet - I did try.
Robert Jurs
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« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2020, 12:32:28 PM »

 Sorry for making all this wall of text  whistlie
But I think some context is important for you guys.

We live in Denmark. And at the time of the construction of the turbine, we were invoiced once a year, for electricity consumption. Basically this meant that production was substracted from consumption. So as long as we didn't produce more that we used, we essentially got full price, around 27 eurocent/kwH, as we would not have to purchase this.

However this year they changed the rules, so now production to grid/consumption is calculated hourly. Which means that we need to use produced electricity within an hour, or it will be sold to the grid for the price of 2,5 euro/kwH.

As we cannot constantly consume more than 3kWh anyway, we will not spend any signifficant amount of money for services, spare parts or consulting, as this investment will basically never be returned from production of the turbine.

So what I am trying to say is that I am looking for cheap DIY fixes. Or maybe doable by a electrician with no specific turbine knowledge.
I understand that I might not be able to do anything about it, but at least I will know why   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2020, 12:49:29 PM »

Regarding Scales.
Here are a close up of the scales, as I remember correctly the Inverter showed around 1500watts at the time of the picture. However I cant document that Smiley

But I have done some observations, where I calculated

Volt x current = watt
280x5 = 1400

And I seem to recall that it seemed to in the same ball park +/- 10%
But I will have a look again, under high wind speeds.

Regarding Dump load:
Actually we have never seen it actually working. Company tested it during installation in 2010.
But we have had several power outages over the last 5 years, and at no point during this, with the turbine spinning as high as 3000 watt, could we see or feel any heat of the dump load.

Could this have been destroying something, else in the installation, or turbine generator?
I was kind of thinking that the 3000watt generated during the outage might just be bumped in the cable or something  Huh 

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« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2020, 05:33:06 PM »

Hi Robert,

apart from the things others have already mentioned there is also the inverter settings that it would be good to check and know what they are. Did you have these documented when the turbine was first installed?

In some circumstances it is possible they could have reverted to factory setting and are not set specifically for the Proven turbine.

As a first step you want to see what the inverter display shows (I'm not certain what the version of SMA inverter you have will show you) against the various input voltages, from say 300V to 500V.

If the voltmeter on the rectifier is showing the voltage running proportional to the turbine blade speeds (visually gauged) then the issue is most likely not with the turbine itself.

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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2020, 07:18:22 AM »

Shame this has gone quite.

I can see the turbine is still running on the SMA portal.

I would say voltage seems right, but peak power is low, tralling through the SMA data, even on a 'windy' day it only peaks at 3kW, this is on a day when 45kWh are produced.  I am inclined to think a dropped phase, maybe via the rectifer, or inverter settings.

Lets assume the inverter settings are correct for now.

If you have a phone with a good slow mo video function you can work out how fast the turbine is spinning and this may indicate if there is a dropped phase, also, you can measure the resistance of each phase by un screwing the electrical connections at the bottom of the tower and taking each phase in turbn, make sure the brake is on!  Proven used steel screw down clamp joiners for the cabling and these can go a bit rusty over time, I ten to wip these off and use solder, the one that I dont like is the joiner in the head itself as this is hard to check unless servicing. 

Any way a few things to check over first before the inverter settings, would be good to know how you get on.

It sounds like the new hourly metering is a bum deal for you, have you got somewhere you can use the spare electricty as heating, there are cheap devices out there that can automatically re distribute the spare power as it varies from the turbines output.



(hi ted!)

My advice is based on me spending my money doing this and my job spending others money doing this.
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« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2020, 07:34:58 AM »

Hi Jonathan,

and good to hear you again, do they not vibrate like feck with a 'dropped phase'  Huh

Cheers, Paul

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SMA SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 9kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
Robert Jurs
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2020, 03:15:44 PM »

To be honest, I kind of gave up on this one. As I was stuck at the "measuring the rotation speed of the blades". But I am pretty sure that they are spinning more or less the same speed now as when we initially got the turbine. Just by looking at it, and remembering. But of course I know this might be hard to remember.
But when wind speeds are close to 12m/s, I am pretty sure that it cant spin any faster than it does at that point - or it would fly apart. And at the very least it should peak out at more than 3000watt at that point.

But the new info regarding the dropped phase - That I can check  Smiley
Sorry for ghosting you guys. It is great to see you are actually wanting to help out.

I will try to test resistance on the phases out in the bottom of the tower, and inside before the rectifier. At some point, I can even also get access to the part inside the turbine head, we just need to take it down for servicing. Fortunately we have the means to do this by ourselves.

I will keep you posted.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 03:18:22 PM by Robert Jurs » Logged
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An unpaid Navitron volunteer who lives off-grid.

« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2020, 03:58:49 PM »

There is also the problem with the Blade springs getting weak and according to Paul, that also causes the power to drop off.

An unpaid Navitron volunteer,who has been living off-grid,powered by wind and solar,each year better than the last one.
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2020, 05:41:23 PM »

There is also the problem with the Blade springs getting weak and according to Paul, that also causes the power to drop off.

Iím not sure we would expect to see a drop of 50% with tired springs, to me, on the face of it this alone would not cause such a big drop in peak output.

Hopefully something will come to light with a little more checking.  I think there is a herbal buzz and desire to get things working , letís keep plugging away and Iím sure it will come good.

My advice is based on me spending my money doing this and my job spending others money doing this.
Robert Jurs
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« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2020, 12:31:02 PM »

Ok. Now I have stopped the turbine, and cut it off at Grid-isolation point.
And I have pull out the 3-phase wires coming directly from the turbine.

Here is a picture of my measuring setup:

Blue arrow from the bottom left, is cable directly from turbine.
And I measured the resistance (ohm) between all combinations of phase wires.

I am not totally sure how to measure, but I assumed it was across/between the phase wires.
(I set my multimeter to measure Ohms, in the 200ohm range) But it did not settle on a static number, instead it fluctuated from around 0.2 ohm up to as high as 12 ohm. I dont know if this is right?

Here are my results (in ranges) of Ohms:

Brown <-> Black  = 0.3 - 8.0 ohm
Black  <-> Grey   = 1.6 - 11.1 ohm
Grey   <-> Brown = 1.2 - 9.0 ohm
Blue = Ground wire

I also made the same measurements at the base of the turbine tower, and they were more or less the same, with fluctuations, in the same ranges.

Note: There are about 30 meters underground wire between the rectifier box and the turbine tower base.
Robert Jurs
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« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2020, 12:51:58 PM »

Regarding the type and the settings of the inverter. I have a Webbox connected to it the inverter, which means I can see a lot of settings. Unfortunately I don't have documentation on how it was initially set up during installation.

Name: SMA Windyboy 6000A
Model no: WR6KA-08

Inverter manufacture docs:

I also found this documentation on the turbine itself:
This beats the doc we got after delivery by miles  Grin in terms of details.

Settings in My inverter:
1   ACVtgRPro   253   V
2   AntiIsland-Ampl   0   grd
3   AntiIsland-Freq   500   mHz
4   Betriebsart   Turbine   
5   Control   Auto   
6   Default   GER/VDE0126-1-1   
7   dFac-Max   4   Hz/s
8   dZac-Max   620   mOhm
9   E_Total   45486.4   kWh
10   Fac-delta-   2.45   Hz
11   Fac-delta+   0.19   Hz
12   Fac-Limit delta   2   Hz
13   Fac-Start delta   1   Hz
14   Fac-Tavg   160   ms
15   Fan-Test   0   
16   h_Total   56876.72   h
17   Hardware-BFS   2   Version
18   I-NiTest   16000   mA
19   Inst.-Code   0   
20   KI-Wind-Reg   0.005   
21   KP-Wind-Reg   0.02   
22   LDVtgC   0   V
23   Phase   -----   
24   P-HzStop   0.05   Hz
25   P-HzStr   0.2   Hz
26   Plimit   6000   W
27   Pmax   6000   W
28   PowerBalancer   Off   
29   P-WCtlHzMod   Off   
30   P-WGra   40   %/Hz
31   P-Wind-Ramp   1000   W/s
32   Ripple-Ctl-Frq   1605   Hz
33   Ripple-Ctl-Lev   8   %
34   Ripple-Ctl-Rcvr   auto   
35   SMA-Grid-Guard   2.12   Version
36   SMA-SN   2001406264   
37   Software-BFR   1.36   Version
38   Software-SRR   1.36   Version
39   Speicherfunkt.   Keine Funktion   
40   T-Max-Fan   90   grdC
41   T-Start   10   s
42   T-Start-Fan   70   grdC
43   T-Stop   300   s
44   T-Stop-Fan   50   grdC
45   Uac-Max   260   V
46   Uac-Min   198   V
47   Uac-Tavg   80   ms
48   UdcWindStart   250   V
49   Upv-Start   250   V
50   Usoll-Konst   600   V
51   Wind_a0   -337848.8   
52   Wind_a1   3659.94   
53   Wind_a2   -13368.31   E-3
54   Wind_a3   16526.37   E-6
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 01:13:26 PM by Robert Jurs » Logged
Alan D
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« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2020, 01:22:18 PM »

You need a reading from any one of the three phase turbine cables to the blue / earth cable
with the meter on the highest resistance range.

If there was the slightest movement " mm. " of the rotor while testing the resistance between
phases this will upset the low range resistance readings.

Is the turbine down. Blades tied / roped to stop the slightest movement.

Where is the blue / earth cable connected at the turbine end. To the local tower Earth ?

Are the three phase slip rings / brushes all shiny. No sign of wear / burning / pitting.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 01:43:03 PM by Alan D » Logged
Robert Jurs
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« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2020, 02:12:13 PM »

Thank you for replying to quickly. I really appreciate it.

Ok. I now tried to measure resistance between the 3 phase wires and the ground/earth (blue wire).
But I am having trouble seeing any changes at all.

Note: Rotor is totally static, with full break on.

Here is what what I can do on my multimeter:

2000k - 004 with no change
200k - 04.6 with no change
20k - 4.60 - small change
2000 - (1) infinite - with no change
200 - ~38.5 with no change

When I use the highest ranges, I get no change at all from no connection.

Only range I can see any changes is by using 20k ohm range
With no connection to multimeter it shows 4.62ohm
When I connect it across blue, and phase wires it only makes a slight change to something like 4.60ohm. From what I can see the behavior is the same on all 3 wires.

If I use range 2000ohm I just get (1) - infinite in display whit no changes on all 3 wires.
If I use range 200ohm it shows around 38.7ohm without any connections, and it doesn't change when connected to any of the wired.

Cloud it be somenthing with the ground wire?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 02:15:29 PM by Robert Jurs » Logged
Robert Jurs
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« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2020, 02:23:27 PM »

Regarding the Ground wire.

Hmmm...  I dont know where it is connected. At the tower base I cannot see any connection to the tower.
If you look at the start page of this thread, you can see that there are only 3 slip rings, so ground is not routed through the Yaw turning.
I have looked at all the pictures I have of the turbine being serviced and I cannot see where the ground wire is mounted.
Robert Jurs
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« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2020, 02:29:45 PM »

I did some more research in the assembly instruction manual that I linked earlier, and in their setup they only use a 3 wire cable to the slip rings. There is no sign of the round wire that I have. I'll try to see if it is mounted to the tower base somewhere.
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