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Author Topic: Electric cars produce less CO2 than petrol vehicles, study confirms  (Read 726 times)
dimengineer
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« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2020, 02:24:05 PM »

The thing that will most likely push a well-built EV such as a Tesla of the road is not the battery or motor but the highly complicated silicon. Not only will software updates become an issue, but any chip has an expected lifetime and the newer smaller pathways used in the latest chips reduce this lifetime. So the 3.0 processor now used in Tesla cars is likely to become the limiting factor as and when Tesla moves to a different design that is no longer backwards compatible.

I know 2 people who have already had to hunt for seconds hand ECUs to keep their cars on the road. There is something to be said about driving a car where the most complicated electronic component is the ignition switch.

Exactly. Thats really what I meant by tired. Something as complex as a modern car - once it gets 10 years old+ you start to run into obsolecence, and general time related degradation (Suspension, internal upholstery, paint, corrosion and plastic failure). The days of the Morris Minor where all you needed was a big screwdriver, adjustable spanner and Lump hammer, are long past.
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« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2020, 03:40:20 PM »

Mart,
I think the US taxis you refer to have done approaching 400K but they did have new barrery at 162 or 192K mls if i remember correctly so not that different from a new engine in a ICE.   I have no doubt though that the 400K battery will be along soon aided by better temp management etc.  From an engineering point of view though if 400K mls is way over whats required in the cars life time one could say it is over engineered so perhaps we need cheaper batts,150K mls life and easy replacements for the few cars ever going to get to that mls.
Ken

Heres the Taxi report  https://cleantechnica.com/2020/03/08/tesla-model-x-with-409000-miles-what-went-wrong-not-much/

Given the skateboard concept of the Tesla, (and other cars?) as I see it, the car IS the battery, pretty much. So really for 95% of people a 150,000 mile battery will be 15 years and more. At which point so much of the rest of the car is "tired", just replace it, surely.

Perhaps we have different opinions on what 'tired' means. To me it's all of the mechanical parts linked to the ICE failing, be it the engine, gearbox, cooling, exhaust, emissions regs etc etc..

Hopefully a BEV will be running fine after 15yrs of average use, whereas an ICE can become a moneypit.
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RIT
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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2020, 04:08:19 PM »

Hopefully a BEV will be running fine after 15yrs of average use, whereas an ICE can become a moneypit.

For the higher range BEVs the software updates are likely to become the first moneypit. Tesla is still offering the full software pack for the M3 at just £5,800 with currently no additional costs over the life of the agreement, but the agreement is not that clear on how long the software is supported for. Such software is already complicated enough to mean that insurers are going to start to ask what features you have enabled and what version you have during the quotation process and in the future, features may be withdrawn if they can not be maintained to conform with new rules and regs.

So car owners are going to have to worry about the same software issues as they already experience on the PCs and phones.

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dimengineer
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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2020, 06:31:17 PM »

Mart,
I think the US taxis you refer to have done approaching 400K but they did have new barrery at 162 or 192K mls if i remember correctly so not that different from a new engine in a ICE.   I have no doubt though that the 400K battery will be along soon aided by better temp management etc.  From an engineering point of view though if 400K mls is way over whats required in the cars life time one could say it is over engineered so perhaps we need cheaper batts,150K mls life and easy replacements for the few cars ever going to get to that mls.
Ken

Heres the Taxi report  https://cleantechnica.com/2020/03/08/tesla-model-x-with-409000-miles-what-went-wrong-not-much/

Given the skateboard concept of the Tesla, (and other cars?) as I see it, the car IS the battery, pretty much. So really for 95% of people a 150,000 mile battery will be 15 years and more. At which point so much of the rest of the car is "tired", just replace it, surely.

Perhaps we have different opinions on what 'tired' means. To me it's all of the mechanical parts linked to the ICE failing, be it the engine, gearbox, cooling, exhaust, emissions regs etc etc..

Hopefully a BEV will be running fine after 15yrs of average use, whereas an ICE can become a moneypit.

I actually mean quite the opposite. Engines have become very reliable. What stuffs cars is all the electronics, and obsolesence therof. As Tesla is "software on wheels" it seems probable to me that a BEV will be no better than a ICE car.
I alluded to the Morris Minor - well, I know also that old school milk floats had an almost infinite life as they were dirt simple. Modern vehicles just are not simple. It will be some chip or ECU or whatever that fails, and it's not worth replacing.
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dan_b
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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2020, 08:40:12 PM »

Hmm - not sure it's software that causes EGR valves to gum up, or oxygen probes to coke up, or turbo oil seals to leak, or fuel injectors to fail....
Modern ICE motors are fantastically complex- variable valve timing, variable valve duration, variable valve lift, multiple turbochargers, different combustion cycles dependent on load, high levels of exhaust gas re-circulation, post-combustion exhaust treatment with AdBlue injection, multiple exhaust catalysts...

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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2020, 10:16:11 PM »

Hmm - not sure it's software that causes EGR valves to gum up, or oxygen probes to coke up, or turbo oil seals to leak, or fuel injectors to fail....
Modern ICE motors are fantastically complex- variable valve timing, variable valve duration, variable valve lift, multiple turbochargers, different combustion cycles dependent on load, high levels of exhaust gas re-circulation, post-combustion exhaust treatment with AdBlue injection, multiple exhaust catalysts...



Not sure I agree. My parent's golf only had EGR issues after the emission "fix".
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« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2020, 06:47:20 AM »

Mart,
I think the US taxis you refer to have done approaching 400K but they did have new barrery at 162 or 192K mls if i remember correctly so not that different from a new engine in a ICE.   I have no doubt though that the 400K battery will be along soon aided by better temp management etc.  From an engineering point of view though if 400K mls is way over whats required in the cars life time one could say it is over engineered so perhaps we need cheaper batts,150K mls life and easy replacements for the few cars ever going to get to that mls.
Ken

Heres the Taxi report  https://cleantechnica.com/2020/03/08/tesla-model-x-with-409000-miles-what-went-wrong-not-much/

Given the skateboard concept of the Tesla, (and other cars?) as I see it, the car IS the battery, pretty much. So really for 95% of people a 150,000 mile battery will be 15 years and more. At which point so much of the rest of the car is "tired", just replace it, surely.

Perhaps we have different opinions on what 'tired' means. To me it's all of the mechanical parts linked to the ICE failing, be it the engine, gearbox, cooling, exhaust, emissions regs etc etc..

Hopefully a BEV will be running fine after 15yrs of average use, whereas an ICE can become a moneypit.

I actually mean quite the opposite. Engines have become very reliable. What stuffs cars is all the electronics, and obsolesence therof. As Tesla is "software on wheels" it seems probable to me that a BEV will be no better than a ICE car.
I alluded to the Morris Minor - well, I know also that old school milk floats had an almost infinite life as they were dirt simple. Modern vehicles just are not simple. It will be some chip or ECU or whatever that fails, and it's not worth replacing.

Sorry but I don't agree about engines becoming reliable as they still have lots of components that wear and fail, and all the emissions kit needed too, but the engine itself is still the problem when it comes to all the associated parts that an ICE requires (since they wouldn't be there otherwise), such as the gearbox, clutch, and exhaust - all of these wear and fail, all of these require ever more expensive maintenance (proportionally) as the ICEV gets older and cheaper to buy, so you replace high cost depreciation in the early days, with high cost maintenance in the later days.

I appreciate that older electronics may be harder to find in the future for BEV's, but at the same time, it's possible that these will still be available, and ever cheaper. Discounting longlife for BEV's on this theory seems a tad desperate.
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« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2020, 09:37:39 AM »

There's probably a business to be developed there in buying crashed EVs and scavenging their electronic control units for future repair work...

I guess the issue is that as with any manufactured good, at some point it will stop being made and will be replaced by something else. The manufacturer will maintain supplies of spare parts for a period of time, but after that, you're basically on your own.  With a 1950s era car, anyone with a spanner could maintain it, or simply make a new part out of some old tins, but yes, EVs will require a completely different set of skills and parts for the home spanner merchant to keep it on the road - it will be as much to do with IT skills and computer control boards as it will be oil seals and big ends.   But I don't think that's much different to a modern ICE car either.

I think where things get on a sticky wicket is for example what Tesla is doing quite overtly now with restoration vehicles is banning/blocking them from Supercharging via software. They base that on saying it's because they can't warranty/guarantee the high voltage components in a write-off/repaired vehicle that they haven't done themselves, and they don't want to put a risk on the Supercharger network.   But I think, as with Apple previously refusing to repair old iPhones, that legislation will catch up with them on that at some point.  The consumer "Right to repair" is a live issue.

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MR GUS
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« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2020, 11:22:18 AM »

+1 Dan
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Philip R
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« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2020, 11:45:06 AM »

There will be no vintage cars in museums of the future from this era that will work. Why, because the electronics will have failed and the engine will not run without an ECU.

Same to be said of current electric cars.

Older cars with mechaical fuel injection or carburettord will stll be able to run, on whatever availible fuel that might be availible in the future.
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