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Author Topic: electric trains  (Read 1053 times)
brackwell
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« on: March 25, 2020, 07:50:36 AM »

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/03/24/siemens-mobility-will-supply-20-battery-electric-trains-to-baden-wurttemberg/

Most of the energy used in trains has to be the acceleration and braking. To capture the braking energy has to be a big plus but allowing electrifation on non electrified lines with perhaps just a very short length for charging as when stopped at a station.
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Nickel2
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« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2020, 08:56:28 AM »

Vivarail have been experimenting with upcycling old LU units for use on branch lines. Not sure what progress has been made recently though.
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Barrie
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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2020, 09:29:34 AM »

CAF Urbos five car trams as used in Birmingham since 2014 have super capacitors and batteries to enable them to run through the city centre without an overhead power supply.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAF_Urbos#CAF_Urbos_3

No mention of regenerative braking.
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MR GUS
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2020, 01:40:28 PM »

Just "stole" / copied & pasted some of this threads info-schmutter for fully charged (Robert), bearing in mind how the Super capacitor helps solve the "unsightly" (perception) of overhead lines it helps get these projects past councils.

Having pointed out it being in Brum he may now cover this (got a quick reply) ..would be nice to have a commuter /goods movement tech episode rather than another car episode reach the masses.

fingers crossed.
Nice one Barrie  Grin
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dan_b
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« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2020, 01:41:17 PM »

Loads of electric trains can feed power back to the grid through regen braking already, but I guess if there are no actual electric power lines/ 3rd rails, and it's less costly to put batteries in the trains than electrify the lines, that could be a solution
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MR GUS
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« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2020, 01:44:13 PM »

Dan, with Tesla looking at the hauling grunt of the Tesla-truck I don't think it will be long before the tesla train in cahoots with bombardier or the like.

PT Barnum & old wossisname are cut from the same cloth.
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Stig
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« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2020, 02:56:28 PM »

Loads of electric trains can feed power back to the grid through regen braking already, but I guess if there are no actual electric power lines/ 3rd rails, and it's less costly to put batteries in the trains than electrify the lines, that could be a solution

I've heard that there's a problem with current (no pun intended) regen braking when the other train on the same bit of track circuit leaves and there's suddenly no load to take the energy.  I imagine that friction braking automatically takes over.  fingers crossed!
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dan_b
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« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2020, 03:06:59 PM »

An old article but nonetheless relevant  https://www.ctc-n.org/technologies/regenerative-braking-trains
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brackwell
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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2020, 03:49:22 PM »

Good article.

An electric engine uses 1/3rd the energy of a diesel engine so we need to get rid of diesel on so many fronts and the hybrid battery route must have now come of age with lower batt costs,ultracapacitors and better control and understanding.  What a pity Tesla dont make train engines. If batts drive trucks and ferries this would be easy.
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GarethC
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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2020, 05:39:50 PM »

Is this handy for line electrification, as you avoid having to bother raising bridges and tunnels to fit overhead wire? Just run on batts for a wee bit?
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Nickel2
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« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2020, 07:42:05 PM »

That's where the Class 769 units will come in handy. The units are tri-mode, and are capable of running from 25 kV AC overhead, 750 VDC third rail, or the pair of diseasels slung under the floor. We've been waiting for them on the North-Downs line for years; units with that capability can go anywhere on the network.
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EpEver 4210A at 24v
New (Old) 8S7P LiFe battery, 105Ah @ 26.4V
EpEver STI1000-24-230 pure sine inverter
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MR GUS
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« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2020, 11:31:39 AM »

 Nickel. how does having 3 operating systems affect their maintainance schedule (practical downtime) vs a regular unit any idea?
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Philip R
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« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2020, 11:59:48 AM »

The government killed the dual mode e voyager a few years ago. a project between virgin, alstom and bombardier.
Lot to be said for dual mode electro diesel trains, more route flexibility for a start. and run on electric when under the wires. Cost per mile is cheaper than running on diesel.
( Did the red diesel duty increase massively after the budget as rumoured beforehand?)
Philip R
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Nickel2
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« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2020, 12:03:55 PM »

It's an up-cycled class 319 bi-mode electric (25kVAV/750VDC) standard unit that has been in service for the last 30-ish years.
They take a 319, strip it, refurb it, then install a couple of diseasel engines beneath 2 coaches per unit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_769

The engine sets generate DC, and the motor control gear thinks its getting it's power from the third rail. I don't know if they operate regen back to the supply.
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1.140kW mono south-facing at 49*
EpEver 4210A at 24v
New (Old) 8S7P LiFe battery, 105Ah @ 26.4V
EpEver STI1000-24-230 pure sine inverter
Of course it'll work. (It hasn't caught fire yet).
M
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« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2020, 12:07:20 PM »

The government killed the dual mode e voyager a few years ago. a project between virgin, alstom and bombardier.
Lot to be said for dual mode electro diesel trains, more route flexibility for a start. and run on electric when under the wires. Cost per mile is cheaper than running on diesel.
( Did the red diesel duty increase massively after the budget as rumoured beforehand?)
Philip R

The red diesel changes kick in in two years time, but I don't think they affect trains nor agriculture use. Also the heating industry will be immune, but I don't know if that includes domestic boilers?
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