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Author Topic: Comment on Green Industrial Revolution  (Read 600 times)
todthedog
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« on: November 19, 2020, 07:07:11 AM »

This is a comment by Prof Richard Murphy on an article in the Financial Times



'' I suppose I should praise Boris Johnson for announcing what he calls a Green Industrial Revolution’ in the FT this morning, but I find it hard to do so. There are several reasons.
First, the money involved has, by and large, already been previously announced. This is simply a repackaging, in the main.
Second, the amount to be spent is £12 billion, over an extended time scale, which is paltry given the urgency of the issue.
Third, this sum is less than the £17 billion spent by the government buying PPE and other equipment from those with ties to the Conservative Party according to a House of Commons report, also out today.
Fourth, the commitments included those to nuclear (which no one seems that kern to build) and carbon capture and storage, which is of decidedly marginal green value.
And fifth, and by far the most important, is the fact that the most basic changes required to deliver change are omitted from the list of projects to be supported.
So, for example there is no serious mention of household energy saving or insulation. The sum committed is just £30 per U.K. building.
There is nothing about heat pumps.
Nothing also about household boiler replacement programmes.
Or come to that, solar energy generation.
The transformation of household efficiency, which is vital, is ignored as a result.
There is also no discussion on reducing demand for travel.
There is nothing about transforming air travel, bar a commitment to creating electric planes.
There is no increased commitment to rural broadband to make it easier to work at home.
And there is not a hint of the energy transformation required around food.
There is also nothing on flood defences, which will be critical as we have passed the point where rising sea level can be prevented.
Nor is there any indication at all as to how any if this is to be embedded within business processes or reporting.
What there are look like vanity projects to appeal to the middle classes.
This is not a Green Industrial Revolution. This is a sop, at best.
The climate crisis we face is vastly bigger than the coronavirus crisis. Its long term threat to almost every aspect of life as we know it is enormous. And the government is treating it with contempt. That is not good enough. But that’s not because of the politics involved. It’s because it is failing to deal with a very real threat.''
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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2020, 08:25:41 AM »

Wow,
That is a powerful statement indeed.  banghead
Quite a reality check. Sad

This country should be over the top in solar farms in the South and Wind farms in the North along with large battery storage facilities dotted all the way up and down. We should be exporting the excess. There should be a broad advertising campaign to get the UK behind changing its way of looking at power & pollution, grass rooting it in the schools and spreading out from there. Every single person in the UK can make a difference to their own personal world to the benefit of all and it doesn't have to cost them a penny. If they have a penny to spend on improving their world it should be incentivised by each local govt.


« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 08:56:43 AM by pantsmachine » Logged

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brackwell
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2020, 08:45:14 AM »

I do not wish to get into any political argument but i believe there are errors in that piece.

The Times quoted some things. Extracts,

1) "Ministers have already committed 32billion to cycling and walking ......

2) "The government has pledged to install 600,000 heat pumps A YEAR by 2028"

3) " "extension of the Green Homes Grant schemet to insulate draughty homes with the help of grants of up to £10k

In a interview on telly BJ mentioned greening flying and introducing hydrogen.  The gov already has a pledge for tree planting of  30,000 Hectares/yr.  There is already support for offshore wind and onshore and solar are self funding because they are the cheapest way of producing leccy.

You cannot please all the people all of the time.
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desperate
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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2020, 07:09:30 PM »

It would be easier to please people if they would perhaps think twice about blowing a hundred Bn on HS2 while only spending  a few Bn on saving the planet. Pledges are easy to do, actually achieving something takes a bit more effort. I believe he has already spaffed away 12Bn on his "Moonshot" testing malarkey all without consulting any experts.  banghead

Desp
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brackwell
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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2020, 10:12:54 AM »

It is easy to become despondant when we hear of some projects but then i have to sit back and thick of the past.

10 yrs ago i could not even buy an EV and i tried and now look.
10yrs ago Our leccy grid was entirely dependant on coal and now it virtually does not exist and soon will not.
!0yrs ago battery storage did not exist commercially
The eastern DC link will be privately funded.

I dont know what it is that people look to the gov to make changes AND spend loads of money.  How much money does it take to say "ban FF cars "  "close down coal power".  " Make houses sustainable and existing EPC "C"

On the other hand private enterprise is picking up the baton eg from just one co.

"SSE pledges to spend almost £4m every day on low carbon projects in the UK and Ireland

The £7bn plan includes a £580m onshore wind farm and a £3bn offshore site, which claims to be the largest in Scotland"

At the moment the good news far outweighs the bad and what is wrong is that people expect this can be done in a quicker time scale when it cannot unless we go on to a war footing and also totally bankrupt the country. It is not just vision/wish but finance,tech expertise,resources, skilled labour and allowance by the general public.

 I think we would be staggered by how many people have no idea where leccy comes from other than from a socket.

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dan_b
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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2020, 10:56:48 AM »

Digging through the detail, most of these measures have already been previously announced or already committed to. 
It seems there is about £4 billion of "new" funding here. Let's hope it's spent wisely.  Ie not on "hydrogen"!

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Countrypaul
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« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2020, 12:56:32 PM »

I know "The government has pledged to install 600,000 heat pumps A YEAR by 2028"  but I have not heard on when they will ban the installation of new gas & oil boilers assuming they have which would seem more important, and whether there may be exceptions for special cases, anyone know?
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« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2020, 02:06:35 PM »

I know "The government has pledged to install 600,000 heat pumps A YEAR by 2028"  but I have not heard on when they will ban the installation of new gas & oil boilers assuming they have which would seem more important, and whether there may be exceptions for special cases, anyone know?

What is the solution for a top floor one bedroom flat that currently has a decent Vaillant combi gas boiler to provide DHW and CH? 

The only options that I can see are an ASHP (but presumably you'd then also need a water tank - for which there is little room) or go fully electric and rewire the whole place for panel heaters/storage heaters plus install an instant water heater that can cope with a bath etc.

(NB disclosure - I rent out such a property in North London)
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« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2020, 03:28:13 PM »

I know "The government has pledged to install 600,000 heat pumps A YEAR by 2028"  but I have not heard on when they will ban the installation of new gas & oil boilers assuming they have which would seem more important, and whether there may be exceptions for special cases, anyone know?

What is the solution for a top floor one bedroom flat that currently has a decent Vaillant combi gas boiler to provide DHW and CH? 

The only options that I can see are an ASHP (but presumably you'd then also need a water tank - for which there is little room) or go fully electric and rewire the whole place for panel heaters/storage heaters plus install an instant water heater that can cope with a bath etc.

(NB disclosure - I rent out such a property in North London)

For a smallish property you might get away with a couple of air con units (2.5kW or 3.5kW) and a hot water tank?
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desperate
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« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2020, 03:40:50 PM »

I know "The government has pledged to install 600,000 heat pumps A YEAR by 2028"  but I have not heard on when they will ban the installation of new gas & oil boilers assuming they have which would seem more important, and whether there may be exceptions for special cases, anyone know?

What is the solution for a top floor one bedroom flat that currently has a decent Vaillant combi gas boiler to provide DHW and CH? 

The only options that I can see are an ASHP (but presumably you'd then also need a water tank - for which there is little room) or go fully electric and rewire the whole place for panel heaters/storage heaters plus install an instant water heater that can cope with a bath etc.

(NB disclosure - I rent out such a property in North London)


You will be fine no one will be disconnected from the grid, the proposal is to not allow gas connections for new builds from whenever they get round to it. Transco haven't spent a fortune installing all that yellow pipe underground just to throw it all away.

Desp
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2020, 08:55:11 AM »

It's all right, house builders can carry on 'with business as usual':

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-55020558
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2020, 08:04:15 AM »

Another opinion on the announcement:


Solar and storage ‘unsupported’ by Johnson’s Green Industrial Revolution plan

Quote
Solar and storage technologies were conspicuously absent from Boris Johnson’s Ten Point Plan for a Green Industrial Revolution.

Released late last night, the Prime Ministers pledges include increased funding for carbon capture and storage, hydrogen and nuclear, as well as reiterating the commitment to grow the offshore wind sector to 40GW by 2030.

Quote
However, both solar and storage were absent from Ten Point Plan, with Dr Jonathan Marshall, head of Analysis at the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit suggesting they were key ‘gaps’.

“Onshore wind and solar energy remain unsupported, long shots such as modular nuclear power and direct air capture may not pay off, and natural solutions to climate change – planting trees and restoring peat bogs – remain largely overlooked and ignored."
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2020, 09:27:25 AM »

I dont get what people are expecting.  Does the cheapest forms of leccy production, onshore wind and solar need support, if one means subsidies, of course it does not.

There is a significant pipeline of these sources without subsidy at utility scale.

However at domestic/business level solar does not offer good bangs for bucks other than at the level of own domestic consumption.

Why are people not satisfied with growing the offshore fleet to 40GW. This is a HUGE undertaking but I think people are not in touch with the costs and tech difficulty of achieving this and lightly dismiss it.

The country is in huge financial debt in the middle of a plague and Brexit, and people just want to moan.  People are always moaning these days and they have no cause to.  I just wish the media would stop this always looking for the bad story as i believe it is not doing the country any good. With a positive approach and dialoque we can achieve what we want but dont expect others incl the gov to do it for you.  Sorry.

Ken
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« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2020, 07:37:22 AM »

Great news, with confirmation that the Gov is to support on-shore wind and PV again, after pretty much decimating the industries back in 2015.

It will be interesting to see how the auctions work, and whether net subsidy support is even needed, or if just having a guaranteed price for generation (if that's how it works) allows more deployment, and possibly cheaper generation thanks to lower financing costs (due to the guarantees a Gov backed project bring).

UK government to subsidise onshore renewable energy projects

Quote
The government plans to double the amount of renewable energy it will subsidise next year after agreeing to include onshore wind and solar power projects for the first time since 2015.

Energy companies will compete for subsidy contracts in a competitive auction to be held at the end of 2021, which could support up to 12GW of renewable energy, or enough clean electricity to charge up to 20m electric vehicles a year.
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« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2020, 07:50:49 AM »

Great news, with confirmation that the Gov is to support on-shore wind and PV again, after pretty much decimating the industries back in 2015.

Having a Pot 1 CfD auction for onshore wind is no use if the current planning rules remain in place, as they make new onshore wind development in England nigh on impossible.
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