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Author Topic: Simple on/off for heat pump  (Read 9223 times)
Richard Owen
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« on: May 24, 2009, 10:00:59 AM »

One for Ivan I suspect.

Ivan, is there a 'simple' controller for the heat pumps.

The standard controller isn't sophisticated enough and I don't want another complex controller as I have one of those.

What I'd really like is something that works like a standard boiler on/off signal.

Is such a thing possible?
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20x 58mm SE, 20x 58mm SW, Solar Thermal feeding 320l thermal store.
10kW heat pump.
300W of Hydro Power.
ecogeorge
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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2009, 12:15:17 AM »

I'm working on using a standard 24 hr central heating (or ordinary timeclock) controller but need to know the resistance of the temp sensor that monitors the return temp of the warm (house) water. especially would like to know the resistance that indicates a high temp - say 50 c to help design a controller to stop the heatb pump turning on !!
I'll post wiring diagram when fitted -if it works!!
rgds George.
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Rhea View
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« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2009, 12:34:09 AM »

If it's any help, the two sensors that I use are PT1000 which give a resistance of 1194 ohms @ 50C and NTC 10K B is 3588 ohms @ 50C.
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Ivan
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« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2009, 02:09:57 AM »

I'm sure it's pretty simple. The controller ultimately turns the heatpump on/off in relation to signals it receives from sensors, flowmeters etc. So just work out which wire is sending that signal, what the voltage is (probably 12v) and there's your switch. Of course, if you do this, you won't have the protection of the unit switching off under fault conditions (no flow, low flow, excessive compressor temperature, compressor freezing etc).
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Richard Owen
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« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2009, 07:47:58 AM »

Hi Ivan,

It's not quite that simple.

Or, I'm too simple to work it out.

I've got my controller set to turn the pump on and off once a day. That's the most sophisticated it gets. I've set it for the E7 period. That's as efficient as I can get it.

When it's 'off', it's still powered but none of the pumps run etc. When it's 'on' it runs it normal protection cycle and runs the pumps to check temperatures, flow etc. before starting the compressor. When it's up to temperature and still 'on', the compressor's off but the other pumps are still running.

The controller doesn't seem to use a signal wire to turn the pump on, it seems to send codes down the wires (it's a standard RSxxx interface.)

What I'd like is the controller to have the ability to take an external input so that I could use that to get the controller to send the 'on' and 'off' signals rather than use the crude once-a-day timer.

Any chance of being able to do that?
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44 Yingli 230Wp panels feeding into 2x Solar Edge SE5000 inverters.
20x 58mm SE, 20x 58mm SW, Solar Thermal feeding 320l thermal store.
10kW heat pump.
300W of Hydro Power.
guydewdney
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« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2009, 08:00:38 AM »

are not any of the screw terminals (like the ones for the pumps / switches etc) a 'go' wire? If you sat there, with a multimeter, and checked each unknown terminal.....

I think the display is just a display and timer, not a controller for the switches.
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guydewdney
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« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2009, 08:07:18 AM »

just downloaded the manual - there is a LED on the control PCB that goes green when starting up the system - have a look at the pins near it? theres loads of unused sockets...
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Richard Owen
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« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2009, 10:50:03 AM »

Just taking a short break from trying to clean out my troublesome trv (replacement 54:64+VAT so it's going to get a good cleaning first!).

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, interesting point about whether the display is a controller or not.

When you programme the timer it looks like you are programming the display/controller. Perhaps you aren't. Perhaps your programming the pump and it appears on the display. In which case, the on/off on the display might be just a signal on/off and not a code?

In which case, I might have a go with the multi-meter to see what the wires on the display/controller are doing when on and off.

I don't really want to go poking around in the pump; I think, if it's possible, that Keram or Navitron supply the answer. Higher degree of confidence there, I feel.
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44 Yingli 230Wp panels feeding into 2x Solar Edge SE5000 inverters.
20x 58mm SE, 20x 58mm SW, Solar Thermal feeding 320l thermal store.
10kW heat pump.
300W of Hydro Power.
dhaslam
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« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2009, 12:19:52 PM »

I suppose the old trick of heating the temperature sensor would stop it.   Putting the circulation pump on a timer would be a bit too drastic. 
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Richard Owen
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« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2009, 01:52:03 PM »

It would stop the compressor, but it would leave the other pumps running (about 200W, more than I'm happy with.)
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44 Yingli 230Wp panels feeding into 2x Solar Edge SE5000 inverters.
20x 58mm SE, 20x 58mm SW, Solar Thermal feeding 320l thermal store.
10kW heat pump.
300W of Hydro Power.
Ivan
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« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2009, 02:21:38 AM »

I've asked Leo, our chinese engineer, who is on holiday in China at the moment. As long as he gets my email, he'll speak to Keram and get back to me.
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ecogeorge
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« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2009, 03:11:05 PM »

Been doing a lot of thinking this week and decided that as it's the middle of summer it's time to sort the heatpump out facepalm
Unhappy with the lack of timed periods that the controller allows and despite a much improved new manual still cannot  set it  banghead banghead
Also very unhappy that when on and with house/floor etc up to temperature the circulation pump continues to run monitoring the return temp  even though the compressor is off!!
Decided to move the return temp sensor to the top (outlet pipe) of my 160 litre buffer tank. This tank supplies the underfloor heating and has wood burner and solar input also.
Sensor disconnected  produces error code Po 11 (sensor disconnected or short circuit).Sensor measured approx 6k ohms @ 18c -unusual resistance I thought. A 10kohm resistor shows a temp of 8c for what it's worth!
I them thought about the continual running of the warm water circulation pump and disconnected the wiring - marked 2+4 on circuit diagram. I moved the conduit and reconnected it to my ground loop circulation pump.
FANTASTIC   Grin Grin Grin Grin
Turn heatpump on, it measures temp in buffer tank, if lower than set temp (34c) it outputs to start warm water circ' pump - nothing happens (because  the wires are moved ) then the ground loop pump starts with the warm water circ pump. A little later the compressor kicks in and presto it works.
Shut down is a reverse with the ground loop and the warm circ pump both continuing to run for a short period after the compressor has stopped. This should remove both too much hot and cold from the heat exchangers.

I was surprised not to see a flow switch error with the warm water  circ pump not coming on straight away and can confirm that my flow switch sensor  is stuck on !! I have had no success with either flow switch and both are now linked out.
I did spot a burnt capacitor wire that has damaged the capacitor -I assume this is a start capacitor for the compressor? Can't get a reading on my tester, nor can I read a value, -anyone know? Compressor still starts and runs ok-- about 11 amps full load.
I shall now control the house heating pumps (seperate from heatpump) via a standard central heating timer in conjuction with the zoned thermostats.. Straight forward NO  contact becoming NC when timed on.This controller will control the heating/pumping  periods if demanded and the heatpump will only fire if the water temp drops below set point.
Best days work for a long time. Grin Grin
rgds George.


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* DSCN1783-small.JPG (33.41 KB, 492x369 - viewed 556 times.)
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Alan
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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2009, 04:45:08 PM »

The start capacitor on my WRB09 is a 50 Micro Farad rated at 450 Volt A.C.

The spade connections on your capacitor looks allright. Crimp on spade connection requires to be replaced.

Regards

Alan
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ecogeorge
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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2009, 06:07:06 PM »

Thanks for that , yes have already replaced connector but cannot measure any capacitance on it!
rgds George.
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welshboy
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« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2009, 01:45:29 PM »

One for Ivan I suspect.

Ivan, is there a 'simple' controller for the heat pumps.

The standard controller isn't sophisticated enough and I don't want another complex controller as I have one of those.

What I'd really like is something that works like a standard boiler on/off signal.

Is such a thing possible?
On page 15 of the new manual the wiring diagram shows a connection kt8-9 just after the timer. It is on the neutral wire and starts the valves which is the start of the heat pump on cycle. I am unsure what loading (amps) it requires-  Anybody Know ? and whether it is the link when switched on to start the compressor.
I have a programable controller which will switch neutral during testing on a table lamp (it normally witches live).
It has a resistance of 16 amps resistive and 5 amps inductive hence my query.
It seems easy to take the wire from 8 and pass it through the controller and back to 9- job done  if it would take the load.
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