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Author Topic: C.R.A.C  (Read 144194 times)
desperate
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« on: September 06, 2009, 10:14:00 PM »

Hallo everybody.

At long last I am nearly ready to start on the CRAC project(Carbon reduction at Cactusville) so if you will permit me to post some piicys and blurb, I hope you will find it of some interest, also any comments or suggestions will be gratefully recieved, even if you think I,m a complete dingbat. As mentioned on a previous thread if anyone would like to see the work in progress I will be here full time in october and november so drop me a line and the kettle will be on.
Having lurked about on this forum for about a year now we realised that it would be important to make the building as efficient as possible before installing any alternative energy appliances, to that end I have spent a few delightful weekends shifting loads of junk about in the loft and messing about with scritchy scratchy rockwool we now have about 35cm depth around the perimeter and about 20 cm depth in the centre. This alone made a very noticable difference to Mrs desps comfort while I am practically melting in my chair, huh wimmen!!!
Next on the list was the patio doors, Nasty Aluminium frame dg sliders, only they didn,t slide as the wheels and bearing under them had collappsed, we almost had to get the crowbar out every time we wanted to open them, not too good as we have a nice conservatory behind them, Sooo


 out came the old doors . That happened back in may so we had a while to get the new frame in and hang/glaze the doors. Problem no1 couldn,t find any standard frame anywhere near the right size, then we were quoted 2500 to make a frame Shocked yep thats just to make it, no glass, doors or fitting. Bolleaux to that I,ve got a router type hammer and a couple of chiselly shovels I,ll make it no worries.

Anyway as all you self employed types know, what should be a couple of weeks job after work takes forever  running your own buisiness is a bit of a joke, really the buisiness runs you, well it does me, anyway it did get done  ish in the end[/img][/img]

So that is where we are at the moment, the WBS and TS has been ordered from the good folk at Oakham and I am keenly waiting a call to say come and pick it all up. I have about 3 weeks work to mfinish off and then I am in the lucky position of being able to have the rest of the year off, then nothings gonna stop me ruining our house, so if you are interested next installment sooooon ish.

Desperate

DOH what happened to the pics???


* Picture 089.jpg (55.19 KB, 640x480 - viewed 4564 times.)

* IMG_0731.JPG (51.74 KB, 959x640 - viewed 4520 times.)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 10:17:07 PM by desperate » Logged
StBarnabas
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« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2009, 10:17:18 PM »

Desp
yes please! Great to see Cactusville at last!
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Gestis Censere. 40x47mm DHW with TDC3. 3kW ASHP, 9kW GSHP, 3kW Navitron PV with Platinum 3100S GTI, 6.5kW WBS, 5 chickens. FMY 2009.
desperate
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« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2009, 10:34:43 PM »

StB

all will eventually be revealed, BTW thanks for your generous offer, and likewise if you ever need a place to stay in SW London for a while, give us a shout.

Desp
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desperate
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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2009, 10:51:26 PM »

CRAC part 2
So here we are having spent about 5 or 6 months trying to find a HETAS engineer to install the WBS onto my heating system, I,ve given up. of about 8 that I spoke to only one seemed to have any clue what I was trying to do, and he didn,t want to take on any more work. Four or five of them didn,t turn up and the knuckle dragging numpty that did.... well I wouldn,t let him unblock my bog, let alone take the heating system to bits.

I,ve got yonks of experience of installing gas heating systems, but I,ve never messed about with a WBS, but having trawled throughthe vast amount of knowledge on this forum and a very helpful phone call to Mr Flamethrower, I decided to install it myself and submit a building notice to keep it legit.



This is the hydraulic layout I propose to use, If anyone has any comments/suggestion I would be pleased to consider them.

Iwould like to replace this[

Before the heating season really gets under way, so I,d better get my rse into gear. anyway more soon.

Desperate


* IMG_0152.JPG (49.24 KB, 750x500 - viewed 4414 times.)

* diagram 002.jpg (34.7 KB, 693x520 - viewed 4536 times.)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 10:58:51 PM by desperate » Logged
Stuart
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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2009, 11:20:08 PM »

Good luck, am also on with similar plus full refurbishment. Unofficial work is also distacting me from the job in hand.

can you re post a higher resolution image of your layout? believe your allowed upto 125kb.
think the zone valve on the heat bleed is a bid naughty, but I'm only a learner  Roll Eyes
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guydewdney
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« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2009, 08:17:47 AM »

i tried somthing very similar - and got some very dissapointing results from the TS->coil->coil->dhw out losses. I seemed to light the fire, and hours and hours later, the cylidner got to temp, then it started to create heat for the house. The thermal mass was far too much (or nowhere near enough) so that useful heat was finally generated at 1am - and there wasnt enough to fire the rads for more than about 30 seconds before the heat was gone. I had 2 x 180 litre cylinders.

Much better, and cheaper, was a heat exchanger on the rise from the WBS. Fire wbs, rads get hot in minutes.

pump B fires (when wbs is lit - simple thermostat on the stove) and 'short circuits' the flow to the heat leak cylinder (acting as a radiator). Theres a one way valve from the cylinder to the HE so that when the pump runs, it cant flow water back up to the cylinder. Pump fails, valve flops open, water circulates round heat leak.
If pump B is on, valve 2 is open, and so is 3. Pump A is on too. When cylinder reaches 90 degrees at the top, then the thermostat changes over, and heat is pumped to radiators (3 closes, 4 opens) (this last bit may not be what you want though).

somthign like that anyway


* WBS HEATING.jpg (46.06 KB, 767x1012 - viewed 4428 times.)
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Pic of wheel on day 1
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desperate
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« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2009, 08:39:52 PM »

Hi stuart

I will try to repost a better diagram, had enough trouble posting these, not because of the size, but my ineptness on this dadblasted computer wackoold. The valve on the heat leak rad is a normally open type so in the event of power failure the TS and rad are open to the WBS via thermosyphon.

Guy, thanks for your comment and suggestion, to be honest  my greatest fear is that the TS will be the limiting factor in the heat path, after speaking to others I decided to run the TS on a direct circiut and spec the largest heat ex possible to extract the heat, fingers crossed.
I guess there would be no reason to stop me changing to your type system at a later date and then use the TS heat ex in a more conventional way.
Which heat ex did you use on yours?

HO hum my brain hurts

Desperate
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« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2009, 11:21:50 PM »

I phoned http://www.ejbowman.co.uk/ and they helped me a lot. Nivce bit of kit - cheap, well made, quick delivery.
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desperate
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« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2009, 06:10:26 PM »

Thanks again Guy, I will phone them tomorrow, their website looks very helpful.


Desperate
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sleepybubble
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« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2009, 08:31:36 PM »

Especially their Exhaust Gas heat exchangers, well worth bookmarking that one!
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;-)
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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2009, 10:37:21 PM »

Des,
       Get those old flippin energy wasting rads replaced.....you should know better!!

          chicken x
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« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2009, 10:30:05 AM »

Des,
       Get those old flippin energy wasting rads replaced.....you should know better!!

          chicken x

Whats wrong with them?

What would you suggest to use as I am buying some rads early next year.

I assume a low water content & high surface area?
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« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2009, 12:47:29 PM »

A thermal store used for both heating and DHW needs to be enormous so that it can store heat for 24 hours  oe else as    guydewdney says it is just a liability.  Stoves are generally going to be lit in the evening, unless there is someone around all day,  so they need to be able to store heat from the evening through to the following day. 

I have edited the diagram a bit.       The first store  doesn't really need a coil  because it is not carrying domestic water.  The Bosch 24i is a combi boiler I think so it  would need to be able to give hot water directly when the second cylinder is too cold and why not use a timed heat of the first buffer tank  with gas, rather than direct to the radiator circuit.  I would give priority to the DHW feed separately from radiators  with a connection a bit above the radiator feeds.   


* diagram 002R.jpg (93.08 KB, 617x446 - viewed 4230 times.)
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desperate
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« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2009, 09:04:29 PM »

Evenin all

Thanks for your replys and ideas all gratefully received

Chicken, dont worry that rad is destined for the scrappy as it is opposite the fireplace that the WBS is going to live in, we have a big curved rad in the bay the other end of the room that will stay and I hope that will be enough to keep Mrs desp happy Tongue

dhaslam, I should have explained the logic behind my layout, the purpose of my TS is purely to transfer heat from the WBS to the existing heating system without having any hydraulic connection between the two, I cant see any point in trying to store heat unless as you say it would be possible to store enough for a days worth of heating, I dont have anywhere to site a large TS so that is a non starter, also as you say the WBS probably wont be fired up all that often in the mornings, so I want the gas boiler to heat the house without having to heat the store first. At first I was going to fit a Dunsley or similar but when I considered the pipework mods needed I realised we would have to pull up nearly every floor in the house, big nightmare as every floor is hard, ie tiles, oak, laminate, and some reclaimed Iroko,  Mrs desp...hammer....my gonads...noooo. So I know it is a bit of a compromise, but that is life btw the boiler is a conventional, I wouldn,t have a combi     vomit2    anywhere near here.

What do ya think? am I nuts?

Desperate
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Richard Owen
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« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2009, 11:16:36 PM »

I should have explained the logic behind my layout, the purpose of my TS is purely to transfer heat from the WBS to the existing heating system without having any hydraulic connection between the two

In which case, dump the tank and take Guy's advice and put in a heat exchanger.
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