navitron
 
Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Anyone wishing to register as a new member on the forum is strongly recommended to use a "proper" email address. Following continuous spam/hack attempts on the forum, "disposable" email addresses like Gmail, Yahoo and Hotmail tend to be viewed with suspicion, and the application rejected if there is any doubt whatsoever
 
Recent Articles: Navitron Partners With Solax to Help Create A More Sustainable Future | Navitron Calls for Increased Carbon Footprint Reduction In Light of Earth Overshoot Day | A plea from The David School - Issue 18
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 27 28 29 30 [31] 32 33 34   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: C.R.A.C  (Read 144200 times)
desperate
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3541


Backache stuff!!


WWW
« Reply #450 on: November 24, 2014, 09:58:17 PM »

Bad luck Mr GM, it's a shame all that gear was lost to you after all the hard work and sweat that went into building it all Cry

As you say though a lot of these "custom systems" will confuse the average plumber/spark/builder which unless the advantages are immediately obvious will be its death warrant. Our system does indeed work well enough although rarely a month goes by without an idea or two flickering in the dark crevices of my loaf, there are a few little tweaks to the controls afoot  facepalm.  It is a bit of a worry that something should go pop while I am working away, Mrs Desp would have a heck of a job to get it fixed mind you so far it has proved reliable, but there is time yet sh*tfan

Desp
Logged

www.jandhbuilders.co.uk

still a crazy old duffer!
gravyminer
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 452



« Reply #451 on: November 26, 2014, 06:15:58 PM »

What wasnt lost was the whole learning experience.

To be able to generate heat from multiple sources and direct it to the most appropriate place as required is a real achievement for those who take on this challenge.

I reckon the biggest benefit I discovered ( for me ) is the pre heating of the DHW cold feed to the boiler, cos even if you only raise it by a small amount its still a big saving for the boiler.

Just getting it up from 8c to 18c saves pretty much what it costs to raise it from 40c to 50c.

And having the preheat get it up to a point where the boiler just sulks and lets it flow through is awesome.

Dont let them tell you boilers cant do this.
Logged

gravyminer
desperate
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3541


Backache stuff!!


WWW
« Reply #452 on: November 26, 2014, 09:46:00 PM »

Absolutely mate, putting together a system like these is always a bit experimental which is very rewarding when you look at the experience gained as you say. Hopefully that will be usefull for you on your next mission (should you accept) the learning curve continues. Sometimes I think the curve is a little too steep, especially when water comes raining down from the ceiling when some numpty forgets to set the pump up correctly facepalm

I still haven't repaired the ceiling   whistlie 
Logged

www.jandhbuilders.co.uk

still a crazy old duffer!
skyewright
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1769


« Reply #453 on: November 27, 2014, 09:38:25 AM »

I still haven't repaired the ceiling   whistlie  
Funny you should say that...

Over 20 years ago just as I was reinstating the loft flooring after a re-wire & over confident after stepping from joist to joist for about 2 weeks I slipped while carrying a flooring sheet & put a foot through a ceiling. I patched it up but somehow never quite got around to fully finishing up the job (SWMBO has amazing patience!). I always try to have a DIY project over Christmas & New Year. I'd already decided that this year's project was to be "Finish off as many not quite finished jobs as possible". I'd forgotten about that one. Now added to my list. Thanks for the nudge.  Wink
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 09:39:56 AM by skyewright » Logged

Regards
David
3.91kWp PV  (17 x Moser Baer 230 and Aurora PVI-3.6-OUTD-S-UK), slope 40, WSW, Lat 57 9' (Isle of Skye)
desperate
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3541


Backache stuff!!


WWW
« Reply #454 on: November 28, 2014, 08:50:35 PM »

Hmm yes I know what you mean, some jobs seem to have a propensity for getting put off for a rainy day, several years later they seem to perfect the art of becoming invisible. Trouble is Mrs Desp seems to have better eyesight than me, and no matter how fast I tick 'em off the bottom of the list she adds them just a bit faster at the top bike

Desp
Logged

www.jandhbuilders.co.uk

still a crazy old duffer!
desperate
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3541


Backache stuff!!


WWW
« Reply #455 on: January 03, 2016, 04:35:45 PM »

Oh no it's like a bad smell it just hangs around causing guilty looks all around, and then just when you thought the air had cleared up it pops again............Cactusville 2, what a load of old crac............


Mrs Desp and I have a long term plan to build a new gaff for our dotage out in the sticks somewhere south of here, nothing too grand or fancy just comfortable and with a bit of space to potter around. Plots in the area we're looking at are few and far between although they are a bit more plentifull without services already connected. So from that perspective an off grid system is attractive, but from the perspective of dotage and "feeble old git" maybe less so.
Whatever we end up doing it MUST be easy to operate and simple enough so that Joe plumber or sparky could look over it all for a while and work out how to fix it, and it must have a resale value or at least be easy to rejig to a sellable proposition.

So with that in mind as a very broad brush idea we thought a timber frame place with an awfull lot of insulation and draught proofing with something like a wind turbine or two, a roof full of PV and thermal, battery bank, a big interseason heat store under the house, a wood burner probably dry to "KISS*" and as a back up maybe a tank of LPG or oil that could run a boiler/cooker/generator. Or something like that flyingpig There is also the issue of collecting and treating rainwater to supply everything and then dealing with the wastes, see I told you the bad smell was back   sh*tfan

KISS* is very important to me, I really don't like all these so called smart control contraptions on the market which are meant to extract the last Nth degree of efficiency out of a system or protect it from some numpty turning on at an innapropriate time only to see it spew its guts all over the floor. I think a decent level of control and safety can be had without the need for a degree in IT systems, and into the bargain most normal sparks could suss it out, a small saving of energy is easily lost if the system develops a mysterious fault which can only be fixed by paying 500 quid for a new PCB. I have seen too many super dooper all singing dancing control systems that they have no idea how to use to go there..................phew I feel better for that.

Budget will not be too problematic, both the Mrs and me like to buy  good quality stuff that will last and be reliable. I guess the bit that scares me most is the wind turbines and their controls and linking it all up with a big PV array and making it fool proof.

This isn't going to happen for a few years and who knows maybe never, but if you don't plan almost certainly nothing will happen but this has been jiggling both Mrs Desps and my neurons for too long now to ignore any further.

So with that lot in mind any first thoughts?


Desp

Logged

www.jandhbuilders.co.uk

still a crazy old duffer!
fourfootfarm
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 299



« Reply #456 on: January 03, 2016, 06:27:49 PM »

Have you thought about about straw bale housing? Would fit with your wood frame plan, though possibly not the resale idea.

Maybe something prefab?
Logged

Outback FM60. EPsolar 30a MPPT and a bunch of Tristar 45's. Hodge Podge of solar ~ 4500w. Various generators and 1000ah 24v forklift battery.

Turkish Turnip
A.L.
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 933

G69, Glasgow


« Reply #457 on: January 03, 2016, 06:28:10 PM »

Oh no it's like a bad smell it just hangs around causing guilty looks all around, and then just when you thought the air had cleared up it pops again............Cactusville 2, what a load of old crac............


Mrs Desp and I have a long term plan to build a new gaff for our dotage out in the sticks somewhere south of here, nothing too grand or fancy just comfortable and with a bit of space to potter around.

So with that lot in mind any first thoughts?



hello,

FWIW the following refers to 120m2 bungalow that exists only in my head  Grin

- u-values of non-transparent surfaces 0.11-0.12, triple glazing to 0.7, air infiltration to 0.6ach@50Pa gives a annual heating load less than 800Kwh/annum (Full SAP)
- no heating required above above 7C, heating load at -10C 1.2kW
- enough thermal mass to only lose 1C per day @ 0C, 100mm floor slab and 100mm dense concrete block internal walls
- 24/7 heating means only 1.2kW peak load and control by monitoring  slab temperature
- heating by UFH with flow temps well below 30C, or air/air heat pump with COP of perhaps 4.5
- interseasonal thermal stores impractical, even 1000kWh requires 20m3 water with 0.5m insulation or around 5mx5mx3m, better to stick with about 4 days winter demand if so inclined
- on a decent wind site I think a 4m windmill, 2kW PV, 40x58mm solar thermal tubes, backup electricity source capable of 24kWh/day (genny) and 24kWh (usable) battery bank would do



« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 06:38:05 PM by A.L. » Logged
gravyminer
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 452



« Reply #458 on: January 03, 2016, 07:43:05 PM »

Desp

while its a wonderful feeling going from a blank sheet to achieving your dream, the thing that ruins it ( for me anyway ) is compliance with building regs.

What I wanted in our current project was a simple system that took any hot water from a cylinder , previously heated by wood burning range or solar pv, and run it through a gas boiler that would top it up to temp if necessary, oh and minimum purge.
What I got, due to 'regulations', was not KISS by a big margin and a 30 second purge on a 22mm copper pipe delivering to the hot taps.
Hows that gonna top up my baaath ?

In order to do what you want and keep it simple, the further you are from building control and heatas / Gasafe requirements the more likely you are to achieve it.

Hows about a total refurb rather than a new build ?
You could pretty much be left alone to do what YOU want.

Logged

gravyminer
biff
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12301


An unpaid Navitron volunteer who lives off-grid.


« Reply #459 on: January 04, 2016, 08:36:31 AM »

Hi Desp,
          What can I say,? I got the urge to build out in the sticks when I was 55,( I had already done it several times) So I found an interesting acre of ground with outline permission.
  I built with a view to sell, However, I went the extra mile with the insulation, but looking back now, I realise that, what I thought was over the top insulation was really only the starter course.
  I built traditional because traditional sells. I thought at the time that I probably would not stay. I built the shell of the house first and finished upstairs with a mini kitchen and used the place as a retreat,even in mid winter. The site itself was quite private and inconspicuous but on the main road with all services available.
  I did not ask for a lecky connection because I was not living their permanently and there were times when I would be so busy that the house would sit for over 6 months at a time unvisited. So I started off with one of my site genis. Then began charging batteries off it in 12v to run 12 volt flatscreen and 12v lights. Then learning about inverters,, early Aldi 300watt carp. The reading about solar pv and wind turbines. My first purchase of 2 x 80watt 12v pv panels and a little Y/S 450watt wind turbine got the ball rolling. I did it all wrong at the start. I stuck the wind turbine too close to the house,used a rubbish controller and believed that the w/t was doing all the work,when in fact it was the 2 pv panels.
  My very first battery bank was 3+2, 130ah truck batts (New) and believe it or not there is still 2 of them alive to this day. The little turbine and the 2 x 80watt pv panels gave me and idea of what I would have to do, The scale of things.I went for 120vdc because I was fed up with big fat cables and the non ability to parallel batts successfully. They fight with one another.120vdc travels well.
  I was finding the whole thing hard to understand and  I finally found my way on to Navitron.
  Each off-gridder has his/her own way of doing things and because there are so many ways to arrive at the same point, there is naturally confusion. The main aim is to design a safe (SIMPLE)reliable and economic installation. Of course 4kw of pv is a must but you can get up and running with 1kw and add to it later. I would not bother with FITs because it ties you down and by and by you will want to replace somethings and add to some things and FITs will only cramp your style.
  It is a nice feeling to be generating your own electricity and not using diesel, it is even a nicer feeling going through 8 months of the years without needing fuel for heat of hot water. So there is excellent savings and a genuine attempt at doing my bit to keep the Planet cool. I will be perfectly honest, I would have been as motivated by the savings in my pocket as anything else but the two are compatible and the RE running costs are seriously low cost if you can buy into the right gear. Try and avoid the fancy dan stuff that has call centers in foreign countries.
  Don,t leave it too long to get cracking. I just wish I had paid more attention,earlier in my life.
                                                             Biff
Logged

An unpaid Navitron volunteer,who has been living off-grid,powered by wind and solar,each year better than the last one.
camillitech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5483



WWW
« Reply #460 on: January 04, 2016, 09:13:57 AM »



hello,

FWIW the following refers to 120m2 bungalow that exists only in my head  Grin

- u-values of non-transparent surfaces 0.11-0.12, triple glazing to 0.7, air infiltration to 0.6ach@50Pa gives a annual heating load less than 800Kwh/annum (Full SAP)
- no heating required above above 7C, heating load at -10C 1.2kW
- enough thermal mass to only lose 1C per day @ 0C, 100mm floor slab and 100mm dense concrete block internal walls
- 24/7 heating means only 1.2kW peak load and control by monitoring  slab temperature
- heating by UFH with flow temps well below 30C, or air/air heat pump with COP of perhaps 4.5
- interseasonal thermal stores impractical, even 1000kWh requires 20m3 water with 0.5m insulation or around 5mx5mx3m, better to stick with about 4 days winter demand if so inclined
- on a decent wind site I think a 4m windmill, 2kW PV, 40x58mm solar thermal tubes, backup electricity source capable of 24kWh/day (genny) and 24kWh (usable) battery bank would do





Sounds just like our new hoose A.L.  Wink

I'm probably in a 'minority of one' Desp but my first purchase would be a decent generator with an autostart facility in a proper shed along with a good quality inverter/charger and battery bank. You need a good sized shed as a future 'man cave' and somewhere to cut up 8 x 4 sheets and store stuff. Orientate your shed so it has a good south facing roof then fill it with PV 'direct to battery'. Once you've done that then you can start building and not be worried about damaging your precious batteries.

Good luck, Paul
Logged

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SMA SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 9kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
titan
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 551


« Reply #461 on: January 04, 2016, 10:10:54 AM »

I would suggest that passive solar principals should be up there at the top of the list as it will determine suitable sites. I self built and did most of the design and build but that was 2002 ( still not finished !) and there is a lot more useful information around now.
Logged
desperate
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3541


Backache stuff!!


WWW
« Reply #462 on: January 04, 2016, 07:02:18 PM »

Lots of good advice there chaps, thank you so much.

FFF, if it were purely for our consumption straw bale would be on the cards, but as it MUST be easily resellable, I am not so sure. My reasoning is that as we have no idea what is around the corner we could rapidly find a dose of ill health neccesitates selling up to pay for the care home. Mind you if I lose any remaining marbles Mrs Desp would bag me up and leave me out with the bins so it might not come to that garden


A.L I've always favoured the idea of a seasonal store as if designed in at the drawing board stage it would be relatively easy to dig a big hole with a machine before any other works are on site and I like the flexibility an almost infinite heat dump gives with summer excesses. I was thinking of something like 20m3 ish. I have alway been suspicious of those kinds of heat calcs, in your example theory states that 1.2kW would work but I have found many times that it does require quite a bit more to bring the heat up times to an acceptable level, true enough none of my experiences have been on super insulated house, but none that bad either.It might not be cost effective once the sums are worked out but UFH is a definite, it was the best thing we ever did to this house made a vast difference.

Mr GM a total refurb might well happen if we can find the right place and I hear what you say about the problems complying with the regs, on the other hand though you no doubt know how hard it is bringing an old pile up to scratch in terms of thermal efficiency and draught proofing. We have spent a LOT of time and money trying to improve this place and it still leaks like a sieve. From that point of view the REGS hassle doesn't sound soo bad, maybe, I think.................ish fingers crossed! fingers crossed! fingers crossed!

Spot on Biff, there will be absolutely NO MCS bull poop at Cactusville2, never believed in it probably never will, but as you say I do want a robust simple system. I my head I am thinking of 12kW of PV maybe more, and a couple of turnips all helping to feed a diddly little EV parked in the drive as well as the house.


Paul a decent genny and workshop are a must for me, I absolutely cant be doing with a system that doesn't have redundancy, if I get Ill for a week or two I just want to flick a switch and sit back. I know it sounds a bit feeble but I will be well into my sixties when this gets done and who knows what bits will drop off and leave me a dribbling wreck, Mrs Desp already calls me an old derelict , I'll bl00dy show her...........

Titan passive solar is a great idea it certainly will be used to the best advantage, until we get a plot it is difficult to get specific but big south facing windows and bedrooms facing North seem sensible.

Anyway thanks all keep the ideas coming, who knows in five years time we could have a massive house warming hooley extrahappy

Desp
Logged

www.jandhbuilders.co.uk

still a crazy old duffer!
gravyminer
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 452



« Reply #463 on: January 04, 2016, 07:51:06 PM »

If you are trying to live in a building whilst retro fitting / improving, it is indeed a thankless task but if you go back to a shell it gets a whole lot easier to fit out to a good spec, apart from dpc in the walls but there are simple solutions to minimise rising damp.

The difference between having to submit a planning app that triggers the bat survey (for a knockdown or a refurb ) and the almost inevitable consequences and simply stripping and reconstructing the roof ( no planning necessary if its the same covering materials )  replacing the windows with similar looking but triple glazed etc is worth considering.
Then any serious mods to remain within the new ( 2015 ) permitted development regs and you could easily keep building control involvement to a minimum and have no interaction with planning ......

On the other hand, if you have the time and are prepared to argue with the 'experts' a new build could do it  genuflect
Logged

gravyminer
desperate
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3541


Backache stuff!!


WWW
« Reply #464 on: January 07, 2016, 07:28:57 PM »

I guess Mr GM it depends on what we find at the time, I think the site is the most important aspect to us, at the moment anyway, and if it's a refurb that would be fine. What ever it ends up being we are prepared to put up with the inevitable paper juggling exercise to achieve our ends. Mrs Desp is good at paperwork and to be honest I spend quite a lot of time badgering the planners and building control people in my day to day life and so far I can't say it has been too traumatic.

There's always a first time of course whistlie

Desp
Logged

www.jandhbuilders.co.uk

still a crazy old duffer!
Pages: 1 ... 27 28 29 30 [31] 32 33 34   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums
Simple Audio Video Embedder
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!