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Author Topic: Brine antifreeze?  (Read 7733 times)
Philip R
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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2010, 12:20:25 AM »

Are there any other isomers to discuss?

As an aside, with respect to the Austrian wine, on a skiing holiday in 1991 in Austria, the white wine was very sweet. I did not freeze up on the mountain although it was very cold, must have been the EG in the wine!!

Old off white wine makes good washer fluid for the car. Only problem being the smell of the wine enterring the car when operating the washer wipers. Could one get a high blood alcohol reading if stopped by police immediately after cleaning windscreen with said concoction?!!!

Aircraft deicing fluid falls onto the apron and is would end up in the drain interceptor. I do not know if it is separated for reuse?

On a recent flight home from Germany, the plane was sprayed with said fluid, looked like a syrupy jelly. On take off and well into the flight it streaked along the wings and dripped off.
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Philip R
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2010, 12:25:49 AM »

I read about this non toxic EG while ponderring an answer to your earlier comments.

An additional chemical has been added to detoxify the EG. If that chemical were to degrade, the EG may become toxic again, I do not know.

It would be best to treat the EG with appropriate safeguards as before.
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mespilus
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2010, 01:00:59 AM »

There is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triethylene_glycol
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Now in the HS2 blight zone
renewablegraduate
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« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2010, 07:17:10 PM »

As far as I know the reason for antifreeze is to  prevent freezing when the system is static.    Once the water is flowing  it won't be freezing except  possibly  on exiting the heat exchanger and of course if the pump stops ice will form.  It cannot freeze when moving.    It is  advisable to  put in some antifreeze anyway.  I presume you can use  ethylene glycol as used for cars and costs about 2 per litre.                 


specialist brine anti freeze is needed , you should not use normal anti freeze, you need specially made types that have less effects to the ground when purging and filling etc
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baker
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« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2010, 09:57:50 PM »


 I use a non toxic standard  food grade anti freeze
which is good to -10  and can be damaged at high temp if you have a high temp back up
most non toxic  intifreeze start to gel at very low temperature's so your ground loop must have a flow sensor
should their be a pump failure or bad design or  diy
the anti freeze for auto industry have good properties but their is a risk of toxic anti freeze in ground loop  contamination
the heating Circe
i have changed lots of hot water cylinders with leaking heating coils so it can happen
john

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titan
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« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2010, 10:18:53 AM »

From what I have read brine is suitable for GSHP ground loops and works perfectly well with something like a 20% salt solution giving protection down below -20 degC . The salt also improves the heat transfer properties. The name brine seems to be  now used for any fluid used in the loop more usually antifreeze. For a DIY setup it could be a decent saving over the far more expensive specialist aintifreezes.
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baker
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« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2010, 08:46:18 PM »


Hi
 do you think in the ground loop salt is corrosive can you post the  link that  support the salt in ground loop
as we pay 20 for 5 ltr
if i am  called out and find salt in the loop can i test the consentration with my rf meter ?
 
salt and hydrocarbons could it crystallise in time?
their is also a stainless steel plate  heat exchanger in the circuit
 some copper pipe .  brass, and cast iron pump housing how would they do ?
 
regards
john
   
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titan
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« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2011, 10:20:29 AM »


Hi
 do you think in the ground loop salt is corrosive can you post the  link that  support the salt in ground loop



Hi John,

I can't find the exact article I have read so much on heat pumps over the last month but here is link where it is mentioned   www.rehau.co.uk/downloads.shtml        .I don't know the definitive answer regarding corrosion but I would not think it is a major problem with mdpe and a stainless heat exchanger most pumps are cast iron with stainless or plastic impellers  it would be worth getting some impartial advice ( John Cantor maybe) which may be difficult when the people with the information are trying to sell their products.  It may even be possible to incorporate a simple sacrificial anode  within the flow somewhere. It was just a suggestion for a DIY system as I would think any MCS installer will insists on a glycol based product.

I have edited it to try to get the link to work it is number 5 on the download list

Just found this link to a  WRB09  mentioning common salt for the ground loop   www.raine-or-shine.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=27&products_id=276
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 10:34:17 AM by titan » Logged
titan
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« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2011, 10:36:07 AM »

If you Google for salt water in GSHP ground array and not brine there are lots of hits
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titan
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« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2011, 12:28:54 PM »

It is actually mentioned on this forum in the heat pump section of the shop  www.navitron.org.uk/page.php?id=52&catId=96
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wrigpm
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« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2011, 01:07:23 PM »

People need to bear in mind that the generic term 'stainless steel' is not sufficient to ensure that it will not rust.  Unless the 'stainless steel' items are made from A4/316 (which has added anti-rust molybdenum) then in salt/Chloride environments rusting is possible.  Do we know what grade of stainless is in the PHE of the WRB series?  I chose the 'expensive' antifreeze as I did not fancy finding out the hard way!
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sam123
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« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2011, 04:00:13 PM »

You should use 30% http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_alcohol on your ground loop. It gives you -19 degree antifreeze capacity.

Earlier days also methanol was used, but it is now a days forbidden as toxic chemical :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol





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titan
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« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2011, 05:44:32 PM »

Do we know what grade of stainless is in the PHE of the WRB series? 

I don't but two UK suppliers are saying salt water (brine ) is acceptable in their units. I assume it is translated from Chinese but under UK consumer law I would think if there was a corrosion issue you would have some grounds for recompense. I am sure it would be easy enough to check with the manufacturer.
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Baz
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« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2011, 07:05:49 PM »

How about a differe3nt salt - it doesn't have to be sodum chloride, though it is the cheapest. Epsom salts might work as well and is relatively cheap.
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Countrypaul
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« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2011, 07:39:42 PM »

If you did use epsom salts (MgSO4) bear in mind that you will need about twice as much for the same frost protection due to its higher MW. (MgSO4 about 120, NaCL about 58.5).

Paul
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