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Author Topic: Correspondence re anti-competition aspects of the MCS/FITs tie-up.  (Read 95242 times)
martin
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« Reply #60 on: December 27, 2009, 09:21:26 PM »

I was replying to my eminent friend DHaslam who specifically mentioned urban turbines - if you are fortunate enough to be in a rural position, it is still eminently potty to put a turbine anywhere near a roof, or to building mount it due to the turbulence induced by the building upon which it is mounted......... Roll Eyes
The difference in performance is colossal - if you have a building -mounted one, the actual windspeed will be circa 2m/s where a pole-mounted turbine will be enjoying a decent 6m/s, and pro rata (on the same site), as well as the comparative lack of turbulence for the properly mounted turbine. In practice, this means the building-mounted one will very seldom EVER "get out of bed and boogy", whereas the properly mounted one should produce meaningful amounts of power...... Then there's the not inconsiderable annoyance of the bearing noise transmitted into a structure by wall or roof mounting (one disgruntled Swindlesave owner complained of his "stair rods rattling") - despite claims to the contrary, there ain't no such thing as a "silent mount" Wink
Suggest  you have a good read here - http://guidedtour.windpower.org/en/tour/wres/index.htm, particularly the parts about siting, "roughness", turbulence and obstacles - and for the "down and dirty" view  of roof-mounting from the writer of half the text books on wind - http://scoraigwind.com/ starting at "rooftop madness continues" - (don't let the tatty website fool you, this chap probably knows more about wind than anyone else in these islands!)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2009, 09:27:34 PM by martin » Logged

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Rob in Halstock
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« Reply #61 on: December 27, 2009, 09:45:43 PM »

Once the instalation is complete, I will be reccording the KWH and Average Wind. This will be shown in my signature below as total KWH produced and Average Wind Speed over the same time period. After one year of operation we will then see who is the smart one  Grin
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martin
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« Reply #62 on: December 27, 2009, 09:52:51 PM »

if you really are intent on wall-mounting my money's on Hugh Piggott, sleepless nights, clutter all meaningful amounts of power, and the high likelihood of waking up one morning to find the mounting, turbine and chunk of gable-end in the drive! Grin
The Warwick wind trials did extensive tests on such things - you can download the results from here - http://www.warwickwindtrials.org.uk/2.html.........
snowballs and hell job! Grin
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Rob in Halstock
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« Reply #63 on: December 27, 2009, 10:38:00 PM »

if you really are intent on wall-mounting my money's on Hugh Piggott, sleepless nights, clutter all meaningful amounts of power, and the high likelihood of waking up one morning to find the mounting, turbine and chunk of gable-end in the drive! Grin
The Warwick wind trials did extensive tests on such things - you can download the results from here - http://www.warwickwindtrials.org.uk/2.html.........
snowballs and hell job! Grin

The Wariwick Wind Trials didnt test my turbine or even one similar to it. Plus neither you or anyone else for that matter have any clue about how my turbine is mouted to my house, other than the fact that its on the side wall. Your certainly not in a position to comment on the standard of the mounting. However I would be happy to place a sizable bet that even a good Tug 'O' War team would fail to pull down my mounting pole or any of the gable end. So seeing that the manufacturers have stated the maximum lateral force is not likely to exeed 500N or approx 50Kg its unlikely the turbine will have any affect whatsoever on my wall (PS, dont try to quote me on turning moments and levers either !).
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martin
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« Reply #64 on: December 27, 2009, 11:29:37 PM »

But you seem to be missing the point - even with a grossly overspecified wall-mount which may possibly "stay put", you will probably suffer from noise problems at night,  and every test ever done has failed to extract meaningful amounts of power from a turbine mounted on a wall -  due to a few immutable laws of physics!  Roll Eyes
Here's some more reading  from Paul Gipe, who wrote the other half of the text books, and amongst other things tests all types of turbines, and has done for a great many years....................
http://www.wind-works.org/articles/small_turbines.html#Inventions%20&%20Questionable%20Wind%20Turbines

from your earlier comments, you don't have a lot of money to waste - we're trying to help you not waste your money - I always try to put myself in the other bloke's shoes and say "what would I do?" - in this case I'd be demanding my money back from the charlatans who sold you a turbine and wall mount on the false premise that it has a snowball's chance of it EVER paying pack when so mounted, OR flogging it now before it's too visibly "second hand"......... Roll Eyes

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guydewdney
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« Reply #65 on: December 27, 2009, 11:41:55 PM »

One issue I have is with the noise issues of things bolted to houses...


I have eight tons of water wheel bolted to mine. Its noisy enough that you have to raise your voice (but not quite shout) when next to it.

My bedroom is one room along and one room up from the wheel - the southern face is the same as in my avatar. I sleep quite soundly, thankyou. I have two feet thick wall though. But its (almost) silent inside.




properly done - poles bolted to houses isnt an issue. Bolting turbines to thin newbuild brick chimneys is a different matter.
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Pic of wheel on day 1
7.2kW Waterwheel and 9.8kW PV
Rob in Halstock
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« Reply #66 on: December 28, 2009, 10:34:59 AM »

But you seem to be missing the point - even with a grossly overspecified wall-mount which may possibly "stay put", you will probably suffer from noise problems at night,  and every test ever done has failed to extract meaningful amounts of power from a turbine mounted on a wall -  due to a few immutable laws of physics!  Roll Eyes
Here's some more reading  from Paul Gipe, who wrote the other half of the text books, and amongst other things tests all types of turbines, and has done for a great many years....................
http://www.wind-works.org/articles/small_turbines.html#Inventions%20&%20Questionable%20Wind%20Turbines

from your earlier comments, you don't have a lot of money to waste - we're trying to help you not waste your money - I always try to put myself in the other bloke's shoes and say "what would I do?" - in this case I'd be demanding my money back from the charlatans who sold you a turbine and wall mount on the false premise that it has a snowball's chance of it EVER paying pack when so mounted, OR flogging it now before it's too visibly "second hand"......... Roll Eyes




If you were just trying to give me advice, you would have quit with this argument a week ago. Offering advice is great, and I listen and take stock of advice that applies to my situation. But what your doing is trying to force your oppinion onto me. I do not agree with you and I have good reason for it. I am an educated person with several deccades of engineering experience under my belt, both in Electrical/Electronics and Mechanical. Plus I have the Qualifications to back it up. Your opinion is based on a few examples and trials that turned out to be failures, so what !. Have you measured the wind at the top of my house ?, did you design the anti vibration mounts and mounting system ?, Do you have actual experience of the turbine that I own ?. The answer to all of those things is a resounding NO, NO, NO !!. Please do not be so critical of things which you no nothing about.

Your comments are beginning to sound like a wierd form of jelousey. I dont know if you are involved in Wind Turbine Manufacture or not. But to me it sounds like you are jelous that I was able to purchace a high quality product at a very good price and it was not made in the UK.

I have said many times I will post the perfomance results when the system is fully operational. Why cant you just be happy for now that im trying to do my part in reducing CO2 consumption. Unless you are planning on funding the instalation of a UK manufactured system at my property yourself, I doubt it !. So ive bought what I can afford and im very happy with it, now please leave it alone !.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 10:47:44 AM by Rob in Halstock » Logged
petertc
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« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2009, 11:00:46 AM »

I don't think people are criticising i think as Martin said trying to put them selves in your position.

May be they have more experience with wind turbine ( i don't know ).

I did think about a wind turbine on my house but decided against it ( long before i joined this forum).
we are in a built up area but are up quite high and it it normally windy, but it is a new house 2000 timber framed and looking at the quality of the house my guess is that any wind turbine would pull the end off of the house  Grin Grin

Did you get the wind turbine form the same people that made the inverters ?

i will be interested to see what production figures you get and also a picture of the final installation.

Don't take the post's to heart we are all passionate about what we do, we would not be doing it if we weren't  so some views are very strong and have been formed from experience
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Rob in Halstock
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« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2009, 11:11:06 AM »



Did you get the wind turbine form the same people that made the inverters ?




The Wind Turbine was purchaced from the USA and is UL approved along with ISO9002 and G83. The Inverters have the same approvals are are manufactured by a company based in the Neatherlands called SWEA. Oddley enough SWEA also have the 1Kw big brother to the turbine which I bought. I only discoverd this after I bought mine. However their test results using the turbine mounted to the side of their factory have been very encouraging for me. My biggest problem at this time is taloring a suitable power curve for the turbine to be programmed into the inverters. SWEA have been providing a lot of assistance with this, however as their unit is the larger big brother its difficult to transpose the data for a smaller unit.
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martin
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« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2009, 11:18:27 AM »

I have sold wind turbines, erected them, "played with them", lived with three, been a main agent for a manufacturer, known a turbine designer well, and nowadays give talks on "how to avoid the pitfalls of renewable energy" warning people of the all-too prevalent scams........
I really don't "get" your problem - you are saying that you know more about wind than the blokes who write the text books, and that I'm wasting my time trying to save you from yourself in vain- I'm not in the least "jealous", but trying, obviously hopelessly, to point you to the vast body of evidence which says that roof/wall mounting is utterly daft!
I may yet prove to be  a fool, but at the height of the "roof mounted chocolate teapot scam" I was approached by a company with a "price no object" initial order for 500 teapots (supply and fit) - I sent them packing with a flea in their ears because I knew it to be a heartless scam in which I was not prepared to participate Roll Eyes
As you seem unable or unwilling to follow a link, here's a cut and paste from Paul Gipe

"Renewable Devices' Swift

Close up of tied off Swift. Copyright Azure magazine, May 2007.

Something never felt right about the Swift from the very beginning. The sales pitch is aggressive, not as over the top as some, but aggressive all the same.

For example, just look at these specs for a wind turbine with only a 2.1-meter diameter rotor (swept area of only 3.5 m2).

    * Rated power output: 1.5 kW
    * Annual Power Supplied: 2000 - 3000 kWh
    * Design enables use of turbine in turbulent air flows
    * Silent mast mounting technology eliminates unwanted vibration to building . . .

Whoa, "silent" mounting. That's a tip off all is not well in the land of Shakespeare. No wind turbine is silent or vibration proof.

from this article -
http://www.wind-works.org/articles/RoofTopOvertheTopinBritain.html

as Paul says, there is nothing new, no breakthroughs, no miracles, but an awful lot of hype...........

I have banged my head against a brick wall, and won't continue, you're hell bent on proving all the experts wrong - who am I to stand in your way? Roll Eyes
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Rob in Halstock
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« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2009, 11:32:22 AM »

you are saying that you know more about wind than the blokes who write the text books


I have never made any such claim in any posting on this site !!
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Antman
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« Reply #71 on: December 28, 2009, 11:35:36 AM »

Rob

Might I suggest that if you have a new design of mounting method that could eliminate the known and well-publicised problems associated with wind turbines mounted directly on the house, it would be very helpful to all of us if you would post details and pictures....

Regards

Antman

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Rob in Halstock
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« Reply #72 on: December 28, 2009, 11:42:45 AM »

Rob

Might I suggest that if you have a new design of mounting method that could eliminate the known and well-publicised problems associated with wind turbines mounted directly on the house, it would be very helpful to all of us if you would post details and pictures....

Regards

Antman




I will certainly post details and pictures once the system is fully installed. Right now most of the parts are in a box. The Mounting design is my own and is not purchaced. However seeing as the Turbine is to be mounted on the wall directly behind the head board of our bed, I think you can imagine vibration noise is a great concern of mine.
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northern installer
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« Reply #73 on: December 28, 2009, 11:46:39 AM »

 However seeing as the Turbine is to be mounted on the wall directly behind the head board of our bed, I think you can imagine vibration noise is a great concern of mine.
[/quote]
Rob,if that is the case,my best advice would be to quit while you are ahead,sell this wonderful turbine kit on eBay at a profit,and invest the dosh on a solar voltaic system.
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Rob in Halstock
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« Reply #74 on: December 28, 2009, 11:49:14 AM »

Already looked at PV systems and decided it is not cost effective. Plus my DC claim the reflective angle on the glass pannels could dazzel hikers in the nearby countryside  facepalm. One DC employee even suggested that i could paint the Solar Pannels with a non reflective paint  banghead
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 12:38:39 PM by Rob in Halstock » Logged
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